GT40 Restoration Site
- Thread starter Mark Clapp
- Start date
These guys do some very nice work. Check out
their website at www.grandsportcorvette.com
The #2 Grand Sport Corvette that they
restored is truly a piece of artwork. That's
saying something, coming from me, as I'm a
diehard Ford fan, and don't normally give a
Chevy a second glance.
their website at www.grandsportcorvette.com
The #2 Grand Sport Corvette that they
restored is truly a piece of artwork. That's
saying something, coming from me, as I'm a
diehard Ford fan, and don't normally give a
Chevy a second glance.
This site raises IMHO a very interesting question. Over restoration. Both 1075 and J6 for that matter look nothing like this and they never did. Their history is still with them and they wear it well. To me this car is way overrestored.
Not only over-restored but why invest in this level of detail and not make the parts available to replica manufacturers. I mean it really IS basically a replica built around the barest bones of an original.
Brings up all the philosophical questions regarding preservation, restoring, rebuilding and replicating.
I know the GT40 I sat in didn't look ANYTHING like that...was more like a Formula Ford I used to race with all it's rough bits and crudity than that beautiful thing.
Brings up all the philosophical questions regarding preservation, restoring, rebuilding and replicating.
I know the GT40 I sat in didn't look ANYTHING like that...was more like a Formula Ford I used to race with all it's rough bits and crudity than that beautiful thing.
I'm not worthy!
Mark
That's not neccesarily a bad thing.
One day you'll stand in a pit at 3AM in the rain and you'll see a dirt streaked, grit blasted , duct taped , scratched , dented, sweat stained , car turn into a piece of history right before your eyes. At that moment you'll never feel the same about those who would obliterate that and call it a job well done.
That's not neccesarily a bad thing.
One day you'll stand in a pit at 3AM in the rain and you'll see a dirt streaked, grit blasted , duct taped , scratched , dented, sweat stained , car turn into a piece of history right before your eyes. At that moment you'll never feel the same about those who would obliterate that and call it a job well done.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
Not too long ago I got to see and sit in GT40 #103, which has never been restored. 103 could be driven in a race tomorrow, if need be. Although it's had careful maintenance over the years, and some updates, it is not a show queen but a genuine racing car.
Although I admire the level of craftsmanship displayed in the restoration photos on the web site, I agree with Jim in that I think making race cars into jewelry defeats their original purpose, by making them too valuable to drive in earnest.
Racing tends to be a messy business, but when I looked at 103 I saw living history, and all those scratches and dents are part of that history. That's a car you wouldn't be afraid to get dirty- on your way to the winner's circle.
Although I admire the level of craftsmanship displayed in the restoration photos on the web site, I agree with Jim in that I think making race cars into jewelry defeats their original purpose, by making them too valuable to drive in earnest.
Racing tends to be a messy business, but when I looked at 103 I saw living history, and all those scratches and dents are part of that history. That's a car you wouldn't be afraid to get dirty- on your way to the winner's circle.
I have to agree with MK-IV J6, although a beautiful restoration and indeed a work of art, the entire car is all but new. There appears to be very little left of the original chassis and no doubt the engine and drive train/suspension etc are new as well.
The mystique and historical reverance of the car seems to have been scrapped along with the rusted parts of the chassis.
Never the less you have to admire the skill and 'damn the expense' attitude of the guys who brought these cars back to life.
Does anyone have any idea of the colour of 1036 on the web site? I have been trying to trace this coluor code for a while now without any success.
Best regards Paul Bearman.
The mystique and historical reverance of the car seems to have been scrapped along with the rusted parts of the chassis.
Never the less you have to admire the skill and 'damn the expense' attitude of the guys who brought these cars back to life.
Does anyone have any idea of the colour of 1036 on the web site? I have been trying to trace this coluor code for a while now without any success.
Best regards Paul Bearman.
Where do you draw the line with an "accurate restoration"? It should be strictly up to the owner, after all, he's the one paying the freight.
Granted, 1076 might as well be a new car, but
the "before shots" of the chassis show major structural problems. Should the restorer have left every other tank sponson frame as was,etc, in order to maintain the original historical provenance of the car, yet sacrifice safety?
Or should he replace everything necessary to
preserve the car, using exact specs and the same materials, that will keep the car from rusting into oblivion in a garage somewhere?
Or maybe just spray the car inside and out with 40 year old paint?
IMHO, it is still the same beautiful car, with the same history. I'm glad to see that the owner was willing to go to such great expense to have it done.
Granted, 1076 might as well be a new car, but
the "before shots" of the chassis show major structural problems. Should the restorer have left every other tank sponson frame as was,etc, in order to maintain the original historical provenance of the car, yet sacrifice safety?
Or should he replace everything necessary to
preserve the car, using exact specs and the same materials, that will keep the car from rusting into oblivion in a garage somewhere?
Or maybe just spray the car inside and out with 40 year old paint?
IMHO, it is still the same beautiful car, with the same history. I'm glad to see that the owner was willing to go to such great expense to have it done.
Mike
First of all what ever makes one happy is fine with me.
That said when my Lola reached the point that there really wasn't much left that wasn't turning to dust, remember this car crashed badly at least twice and its tub was repalced once by Pensky and once by Meyer, I deceided it was more honest to restore it as a continuation of what often happened to old Lola race cars as Sabarro and Pensky did as a "tarted up Hot Rod Lola street car" With AC, electric windows, instrements with Lola logo's, hydrolic gull wing doors, Stainless tub panels, extra water radiator in rear for cooling, Cd player, etc. I was in no way pretending this car is as it was when Mark won it's first race in 66.
J6 is totally different. It, probably as it really only raced in one race is amazingly original. Pete Brock told me IHHO it is the most original MK-IV in the world. The one in the Ford museam (J5) is missing MANY of it's original parts. To turn J6 into a piece of jewelry IMHO would be a crime.
1074 took a lot of work. The craftmanship is impressive. I've sat in 1075. 1075 still has it's battle scars. I stand on my statement:
1074 Never looked like it does in these photos.
Look at the link to my P4. (In T70 thread)
Old race cars can be restored without obliterating their history but it a very difficult thing to do.
Best
Jim
First of all what ever makes one happy is fine with me.
That said when my Lola reached the point that there really wasn't much left that wasn't turning to dust, remember this car crashed badly at least twice and its tub was repalced once by Pensky and once by Meyer, I deceided it was more honest to restore it as a continuation of what often happened to old Lola race cars as Sabarro and Pensky did as a "tarted up Hot Rod Lola street car" With AC, electric windows, instrements with Lola logo's, hydrolic gull wing doors, Stainless tub panels, extra water radiator in rear for cooling, Cd player, etc. I was in no way pretending this car is as it was when Mark won it's first race in 66.
J6 is totally different. It, probably as it really only raced in one race is amazingly original. Pete Brock told me IHHO it is the most original MK-IV in the world. The one in the Ford museam (J5) is missing MANY of it's original parts. To turn J6 into a piece of jewelry IMHO would be a crime.
1074 took a lot of work. The craftmanship is impressive. I've sat in 1075. 1075 still has it's battle scars. I stand on my statement:
1074 Never looked like it does in these photos.
Look at the link to my P4. (In T70 thread)
Old race cars can be restored without obliterating their history but it a very difficult thing to do.
Best
Jim
No matter which school of thought you come from, it's hard to deny that these guys do some first class work. I'm sure that they would have left the warts on the car if requested to do so. With such a nice job of recreating original parts, they could probably work wonders with original warts too!
[ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Bayard ]
[ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Bayard ]
This is one debate which will always end in a hung jury. In the end its down to personal preference and moral values. I've checked out this site and the restoration is incredible, the men responsible for the craftsmanship and attention to detail worthy of the title 'artisans'.
I have to agree with the philosophical approach, when does it become over the top? I personally would like to see a car emerge from a restoration as it did when it was new. Anything else would be above and beyond originality and therefore void. In theory though, I could find a VIN plate off a GT40 in a field at Le Mans, the car long gone, and build a completely new one based on that chassis number (for arguments sake guys!) It is original to a purist, but it is as original as our replicas, and yet the purists scoff at our cars. Where's the justice. It's a tough one to call, and I'm sure many an hour will be spent over a few beers arguing the toss.
In the end though, perhaps we should just be thankful that this car along with many others has survived and will continue to reinforce the legend of the Ford GT40. That and the fact that the owner didn't add furry dice to the interior mirror! I'm off for a bud!
I have to agree with the philosophical approach, when does it become over the top? I personally would like to see a car emerge from a restoration as it did when it was new. Anything else would be above and beyond originality and therefore void. In theory though, I could find a VIN plate off a GT40 in a field at Le Mans, the car long gone, and build a completely new one based on that chassis number (for arguments sake guys!) It is original to a purist, but it is as original as our replicas, and yet the purists scoff at our cars. Where's the justice. It's a tough one to call, and I'm sure many an hour will be spent over a few beers arguing the toss.
In the end though, perhaps we should just be thankful that this car along with many others has survived and will continue to reinforce the legend of the Ford GT40. That and the fact that the owner didn't add furry dice to the interior mirror! I'm off for a bud!
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
You know, it's interesting to me that the Corvette restoration folks have adopted, as I understand it from my Vette days, a restoration standard that calls for the cars to be as they were when they left the factory. Their job is much easier because these were production cars and there is quite a lot of photo documentation of what the cars looked like before they were loaded and shipped. No such luxury exists with race cars such as the GT40 which were handmade in limited numbers.
I admire what they did with 1076 but it would not have been my choice. I believe you can find a place for a line- and draw it- to separate the things that make a vintage racer safe and usable from those which turn it into, as I said, jewelry. I think Jim has chosen the right course, and so has the owner of #103. You can't replace all that history once it is painted and buffed away.
I admire what they did with 1076 but it would not have been my choice. I believe you can find a place for a line- and draw it- to separate the things that make a vintage racer safe and usable from those which turn it into, as I said, jewelry. I think Jim has chosen the right course, and so has the owner of #103. You can't replace all that history once it is painted and buffed away.
Bill
1076 Never looked like that even on the day it left the factory. It was much cruder. As it raced, like J6 it picked up scars. These are parts of it's history. These scratches, dings, and abrasions should never be restored out. After fixing the rust the original panels could have been put back warts and all.
J6 has still has the dent that Bruce McLaren's helmut made when he threw it down and ran after the tail which had blown off on the Mulsanne striat. It still has the scratches the mechanics wrenches made, and the wear marks in the seat caused when Mark Donohue,Bruce McLaren, Sterling Moss, and Bob Bondurant raced it.
The original Firestone Racing Tires on 1076?
I have J6's original Bluestreaks but as I drive J6 more than off the trailer, onto the show field, and back onto trailer I keep them in storage.
Best
Jim
1076 Never looked like that even on the day it left the factory. It was much cruder. As it raced, like J6 it picked up scars. These are parts of it's history. These scratches, dings, and abrasions should never be restored out. After fixing the rust the original panels could have been put back warts and all.
J6 has still has the dent that Bruce McLaren's helmut made when he threw it down and ran after the tail which had blown off on the Mulsanne striat. It still has the scratches the mechanics wrenches made, and the wear marks in the seat caused when Mark Donohue,Bruce McLaren, Sterling Moss, and Bob Bondurant raced it.
The original Firestone Racing Tires on 1076?
I have J6's original Bluestreaks but as I drive J6 more than off the trailer, onto the show field, and back onto trailer I keep them in storage.
Best
Jim
Jim
I highly admire how you are treating and using your classic cars. But I must
disagree with you about this one.
While certainly some "overrestoration" is evident, I've seen LOTS worse! Polishing the insides of ashtrays for example.
What I saw on this website was a very thorough repair of a DANGEROUSLY rusted car.
Whether they had to replace every panel they did can be called into question. But from what I saw (other than the roof) it needed
to be done.
And what exactly constitutes over restoration? Should you duplicate obvious
errors or poor workmanship? I say NO!
IMHO there are two major (and valid) schools
of thought regarding frame off restos....
Either make the car EXACTLY like it left the
factory, errors, bad workmanship included...
Or make the car the way it would have left the factory if everyone did their job the way
it was supposed to be done. That means no
poor panel fit, no runs in the paint, no
scratches/dings/dents in the chassis.
I personally prefer the latter approach,
however I respect those that prefer the
former as well.
In fact considering what you did to your Lola, I'm surprised that you find fault in what they did to 1076.
Also, does anyone know the chassis number of the wrecked GT40 (picture 11 I believe)?
If they brought that car back, they couldn't have used much of the original at all.
Which is a whole other topic.
If no one has a problem with prior GT40s
that have had tubs "replaced", then why
is a 95% panel repair any different?
MikeD
I highly admire how you are treating and using your classic cars. But I must
disagree with you about this one.
While certainly some "overrestoration" is evident, I've seen LOTS worse! Polishing the insides of ashtrays for example.
What I saw on this website was a very thorough repair of a DANGEROUSLY rusted car.
Whether they had to replace every panel they did can be called into question. But from what I saw (other than the roof) it needed
to be done.
And what exactly constitutes over restoration? Should you duplicate obvious
errors or poor workmanship? I say NO!
IMHO there are two major (and valid) schools
of thought regarding frame off restos....
Either make the car EXACTLY like it left the
factory, errors, bad workmanship included...
Or make the car the way it would have left the factory if everyone did their job the way
it was supposed to be done. That means no
poor panel fit, no runs in the paint, no
scratches/dings/dents in the chassis.
I personally prefer the latter approach,
however I respect those that prefer the
former as well.
In fact considering what you did to your Lola, I'm surprised that you find fault in what they did to 1076.
Also, does anyone know the chassis number of the wrecked GT40 (picture 11 I believe)?
If they brought that car back, they couldn't have used much of the original at all.
Which is a whole other topic.
If no one has a problem with prior GT40s
that have had tubs "replaced", then why
is a 95% panel repair any different?
MikeD
I don't think we're that far apart on our opinions. If the car is unsafe, it has
to be fixed. To see that primer was never applied to the bare steel explains
a lot as to why these rusted away.
(probably added 15 lbs)
And certainly when a historic car is
pretty much a "survivor" most folks agree to leave it alone, don't make it a "jewel".
It's that gray area in between...
I'll give a recent example I saw.
A guy brought a very original 440 sixpack Cuda to a local show with original purple paint. Now as most MOPAR guys know, the original purple paint was notorious for
peeling off and sure enough this paint had
significant amounts of paint missing right
down to the primer coat.
If it was my car, I'd have that paint stripped and repainted. However the owner
(not original owner) said he felt it more
"historically significant" to leave the peeling paint on the car. From the comments I heard, I'd have to say he was in the minority. However as Jim says, if it's your car, you do what makes you happy!
MikeD
[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: MikeDD ]
to be fixed. To see that primer was never applied to the bare steel explains
a lot as to why these rusted away.
(probably added 15 lbs)
And certainly when a historic car is
pretty much a "survivor" most folks agree to leave it alone, don't make it a "jewel".
It's that gray area in between...
I'll give a recent example I saw.
A guy brought a very original 440 sixpack Cuda to a local show with original purple paint. Now as most MOPAR guys know, the original purple paint was notorious for
peeling off and sure enough this paint had
significant amounts of paint missing right
down to the primer coat.
If it was my car, I'd have that paint stripped and repainted. However the owner
(not original owner) said he felt it more
"historically significant" to leave the peeling paint on the car. From the comments I heard, I'd have to say he was in the minority. However as Jim says, if it's your car, you do what makes you happy!
MikeD
[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: MikeDD ]
Mike
That's a very good example.
Best
Jim
That's a very good example.
Best
Jim