FIA announcement

Chris Melia · 06-06-04, 06:43 AM

FIA announce that accurate reproduction (recreation) cars to be allowed to enter historic race events?

I herd this on the grape vine but if this is true then, that would indeed be good news for all historic race car fans and participants.
If any one knows more details please post.
Regards
Chris.

David Morton · 06-06-04, 07:42 PM

Chris, I've heard this as well but I have been unable to verify it. I think it comes about because they cannot police what is real (original) and what purports to be real(faithful copies). Before anybody joins in and disputes that let me illustrate a point. A friend of mine who is a brilliant fabricator made an AC Cobra chassis (the "ladder" frame, suspension etc) but also made it considerably stronger with racing in mind , and it was then "bodied" by a well known bodyworks here in the UK. Once it was finished the original plates/vin etc were transferred across to it and the "real" car now sits in a lock up (sans plates etc) while the "new" one races as an original Cobra.
Everybodies doing it, and how could the FIA dispute it when it is done so cleverly. I know of probably another 3 or 4 other cars that have had the same treatment.
Dave M

MK -IV J6 · 06-07-04, 10:46 AM

My understand is that ONLY if mfg'd by ORIGINAL MFG. (Continuation) Others?

Malcolm · 06-07-04, 12:02 PM

This months edition of Motosport makes reference to it. It is both a good and bad thing! The example above illustrates the point nicely and no offence is meant by this. An accurate replica chassis and body was made up of a great car and the original car was kept safe by the owner. But chassis stiffening was included to improve the chassis for racing. Hold on, that cannot be an exact replica, which is what the FIA are talking about. If you recreate a car and wish to call it authentic, it is the bad as well as the good that needs to be replicated. You can't pick and choose. To be extreme, a follow on discussion would be that GTD, RF, Tornado etc etc are all accurate replicas but they changed the chassis to spaceframe to improve maintenance issues in the chassis. An extreme and non watertight example but it highlights the issue of where do you stop? Chassis stiffening or beyond?

Aren't there more Lola T70s racing now than the factory ever made? Same with Cobra 500 GT's?

It is a good thing as it will get more cars onto grids for historic races giving Joe Punter a better show when they go to watch motorsport.

The reason why it is a bad thing is because that without extra policing the boundaries defining nut and bolt accurate replicas from lesser quality cars widens the gap between originals racing and authentic replicas racing in the same race. It will take more original cars off the race track and into the garage and cars are not meant to be in garages but to be driven.

Allegedly the MacLaren M8F that GTD made some time ago using an original bodyshell only is now an FIA approved car! I hope the new owners took out the Renault gearbox first!

**J What?** · 06-07-04, 12:40 PM

It's about time. I have been racing cars for a long time and vintage racing for about 15 years. In the last 7 or 8 years I have watched a steady decline of entrants in what I consider the really interesting stuff. My old group of specials, SVRA group 4 cars, is almost non existant. Listers, Allards,Cunninghams, all of the specials and there were hundreds made. There might be 5 or 6 cars like them in a race. Group 5 used to have 2 or 3 GT40's, now you hardly ever see one. I believe the Can Am group only has one race scheduled.
The problem with vintage racing is that there are 2 types of people involved, collectors and racers and they are not always the same people. Look at the owners that hire hot shoe racers to run their cars. Because of the prices of some of the cars that have sold, owners are afraid to put their cars on the track. Problem is, there is a Catch 22. If the cars don't race, I believe the value of the cars will go down.
Allowing copies to race will help with the size of the fields and this will be the reason they allow them. Look at the number of 40s that are complete fabrications and the number of cars that are rebuilt with virtually no original parts except maybe a front and rear subframe. Does a chassis plate make it an original? I like the road wear and the originality of an old raced car. IMHO it is the nicks and dings that make it worth something. Is a car that has had every nut, bolt and rivet replaced the same car that John Surtees drove? I don't think so.
The draw to vintage racing is the rare stuff. I don't think the promoters will have much of a show when all you see are MGs and Triumphs.
Bill

JP · 06-07-04, 12:45 PM

I think it should be pretty clear cut.

You either have an original or you don't.

The assumption that an exact replica should be approved for Historic racing is bollocks, regardless of any circumstance.

I don't mind having a replica/recreation, call it what you like, because I want a GT40 that is both sensible but original in its looks etc.. The anal development of exact recreation just seems pretty pointless because it will never, ever be the real thing - even if it does have some donor parts.

It would be a great shame if they did allow replica cars to compete, it would spell the end of proper historic racing.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

josvdp · 06-07-04, 12:46 PM

Or to put it another way purely as examples : Willment/Wingfield's 1087/1089 etc will be eligible but CAV or Mallock monocoques will not - not sure where yours fits in tho' Chris... but then my understanding of the various threads is that its authenticity by means of age & provenance would have made it FIA eligible anyway altho' perhaps not as a GT40 without an original chassis no

**J What?** · 06-07-04, 06:48 PM

JP
The problem with your point is that copies are already running. How much work would you allow on a car before you consider it something other than the original? Only safety issues? What about wheels and brakes that are no longer available? Chassis full of holes? There is a point at which the original car turns into something else. What provenance does a balled up piece of metal have? So if you have enough money and the chassis plate you build a copy and call it what it is not. Once again it's a money thing. People with money can lie and get away with it and those less fortunate are out. How can there be two cars with the same history? Well there are and sometimes they show up on the same weekend.
I think if you have to have the original car, then the original driver should be required as well.
I don't understand why there is such a big stink about this. And the worst part is that only the really great cars are scrutinized. Take a production car to a vintage race and who cares. Find some obscure log book and run it. But those few rare cars that do show up, the cars that the spectators want to see run, are ridiculed if they have the slightest imperfection. The race fans do not care. They want a show. The race promoters are feeling the pinch at all but the most prestigious events. They also know that they have let cars in that are not original and they did not know it. Maybe it's just easier for them to let all cars in rather than get anal about a car that they can't distinguish from an original. And do not tell me that there will be this huge influx of copies into vintage racing. It is still an expensive sport.
Wouldn't it be great if the FIA found out that the only cars at their races were fakes, so they decided, because of their RULES, to stop vintage events. That sure would be great for the sport.
Bill

Johan · 06-07-04, 08:22 PM

It used to be as J6 stated, continuation cars only.
Now it is only required that the cars be constructed as original. No tube frame Gt40s, no fiberglass Cobras, etc.
Vintage racing will become more profitable, Old race cars will perhaps take a bit of a hit. Monterey Historics and Goodwood won't change, but who wants to go to all that trouble for 1 or 2 outings. The problem was that there are so few original cars left in original condition. Many replicas are more original than original cars . I read all about this development on the FIA website. Interesting news both good and bad I would say. The real problem is that there is not enough participation by the owners of what used to be considered a vintage eligable car. Those that do participate have changed some of the aspects of the car to make it a bit more modern, like vented disc brakes, a 100 more horsepower, even hydrolic gullwing doors (sorry, could not resist !).

The Walter Mitty challenge at Road Atlanta this past April had a couple of nice entries at least !

Brett James-McCall · 06-08-04, 06:10 AM

OK, so would the Superformance GT be allowed?

Brett

Mike Dozier · 06-08-04, 12:51 PM

Frankly I don't see how including replicas in Historic
Racing would affect the value of "original" cars.

If there were 100 Norwood P4 replicas out there today,
does anyone really think it would matter to those capable
of buying/selling one of the originals?

The tougher question to me is who makes the decision
whether a replica is "replica well enough" to race
with those brave enough to risk "originals".

I for one would rather see quality replicas race than
no P4's, MK II's, Daytona coupes, Lolas, etc.

MikeD

Johan · 06-08-04, 01:15 PM

I'm not saying all original cars will be worthless, certainly not. It does not help the value of original cars though, at the least.
In my case, I bought an AC Cobra for it's aluminum body and ID tag so that I could race it, which I did. If I had this to do over again this year, I could buy an aluminum Kirkham instead and save a bit of money.Is the AC worth more or less, if it can now be replaced on the race track by the cheaper Kirkham ?
I no longer race the Cobra, but have switched to a Lola T332 CS can am. Funny thing, but it would cost more to reproduce that particular Lola than it is worth, so at least i am safe there !

Chris Melia · 06-09-04, 04:23 AM

Hi Guys
I just returned from a trip to Switzerland where I spent time with Franko Sbarro, Franco is possibly the foremost builder of replica cars in the world and to see the standard of his work was amazing. I had to enquire with every car as to weather it was a replica or not. I would say that cars of this quality belong out on the race track and I am sure that every one would benefit from seeing them compete. I welcome the new stance by the FIA

Regards
Chris

ChrisL · 06-09-04, 07:26 AM

The reality is that race-cars by their nature do not have any single specification. So trying to make an absolute science out of something that is not absolute is doomed to fail. And as time moves on and contemporary cars become historic, it will become all the more difficult.

Take a modern LeMans race winner for example. The question could not possibly be asked in the future if that car is in its original spec because a modern race car is only ever a snapshot of its development at any given stage. It may go through half a dozen spec changes between one race and the next just to find the best combination for the day, and by the following year all that may be left "original" is the driver’s grin. I know that this is the extreme example but all classes of motorsport are moving in that direction.

Combine that with the fact that these ultimate rockets require that the pilot be an elite sportsman, just so that they might last more that a handful of competitive laps. Historic racing is bound to change its face in years to come.

I don’t envy organizers who are looking into the future and are trying to come up with a plan.

Mike Dozier · 06-09-04, 12:21 PM

Chris

Good point. There is certainly no single spec for each car,
as most evolved from race to race.

But the real issue here isn't what is " accurate ".
There is no question that a replica can be made accurate.
The real issue is whether replicas should be allowed
at all to race with original vintage manufactured cars,
and if so, how is the minimum level of accuracy determined.

Let's be honest....most people with original sports racers
would prefer replicas not be allowed to play, for obvious
reasons. But it appears that FIA has determined that for the
greater good of Historic Racing, they will be allowed to play. Now comes the negotiation stage, where those with
replicas lobby to get their particular car accepted.
Will be interesting.

MikeD

nikbj68 · 06-09-04, 12:27 PM

Greetings! Ok, I`m a Cobraboy, but you won`t hold that against me will you? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Chris, I agree with you about the nature of change in your current Le Mans example, but the way I see it, if you create a replica, it 'should' resemble a particular vehicle at a given stage in it`s development, and be classified as such, and this is where the policing will get REALLY tricky! For those who didn`t see the actual FiA statements, Here`s a link which came to me by way of Trevor Legate.... who also pointed me in the direction of this forum.

Robert Logan · 06-09-04, 06:29 PM

I have to agree with Chris and Chris above . We have a guy here in Australia who owns a "real" cobra (real is his rego number) and he get really pissed off when people ask him "which kit is it mate". I fully understand that he would not be pleased. The same guy has the best Lotus 23 "replica" that I have ever seen. It is a true replication or reincreation andd all that is missing is the chassis plate. The Lotus has been on display many times but I do not think it is allowed to be drive at Historic Meetings. I for one wish that the car was allowed on the track.

On that point there are Porsche 908, 910 and 917 replica's as well as Alfa F1 replica's here and again they are not allowed on the track except for display reasons.

If we can not see the real thing because they are so valuable that the owners will not risk them then a "TRUE" replica is just as good.

Best wishes to all,

Robert

norman falkiner · 06-09-04, 07:23 PM

I can understand both sides on this one. Meetings like the Goodwood Revival meeting can demand "original" cars but at a lot of historic meetings here in Oz the selection of cars in most cases is pathetic. Some of them are like Captain Cook's axe (10 new handles and 4 new heads ) but that old rusty chassis plate is still hanging on in there. I had an eligble car for 20 years ( 4th place Australian Grand Prix 1935 ) and enjoyed participating but as a spectator now I no longer go. Bring on the good replicars to improve the event and I for one would have it marked on my calender 12 months ahead. Regards

Martin Weigold · 06-10-04, 06:46 PM

JP

Good to see you at Lydden the other day [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] However, I have to disagree with you on this one. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Surely it is absolutely the point that, in order to qualify, the cars need to be exact replicas of a car at a particular point in time. Otherwise, it would be completely unfair to let a "replica" taking advantage of modern technology, compete against the original cars. This is the ONLY reason the FIA should allow this IMHO.

Martin

JP · 06-11-04, 03:45 AM

Martin,

I see your point, but a replica can never be an original. I'm sure you understand what I mean. Its just my opinion, I know I'm wrong but there's nothing like throwing some petrol on the fire!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

P.S I've got some fantastic footage from Lydden!