Bolts and washers ?

[StuartB]

Frank, we know the sort of people and system we dealing with here, in all reality the best thing he can do is spend a day lock wiring everthing in sight and go for a retest, humble, all smiles and remembering laugh at the guys jokes.
When he has the pass paper in his hand can he tell the guy what he thinks of him and start making the guys life BUSY by writing letters to everyone that`s above the guy or may have any say in the matter and load him up with paperwork all of his own (as he seems to like it so much)[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Robert Logan]

Frank, Brian et all,

Welcome to the land of SUBJECTIVITY !!!!

This is the sort of stuff that the builders and manufacturers in Australia have been forced to deal with for decades. A set of rules originated by an Australian governing body which is administered or enforced by individuals.

Be very careful (I sound like Elmer Fud) that this is not allowed to continue to the position it is in Australia today.

In my opinion there are TWO basic types of inspectors :

1.The guy who says " It does not tell me you can have it so you can't", and

2.The guy who says "It does not tell me you can not have it so you can".

These are very different attitudes and we all want the last guy to represent us but this is wrong. I would like to see all the guys reading the same page and interpeting it the same way.

The major advantage you have in the UK is that you have a body (Specialist Car Manufacturers Association - or something like that) that is representing you. This is something I am very concerned with in Australia. We lack representation at all levels and this has made things almost impossible in NSW (read Sydney and associated areas) to register a "kit car".

Please take my advice and get the SCMA to react to this with urgency.

Best wishes,

Robert

[patbarry]

I love inspectors. They can make life a living hell with no grounding reality nor facts. Yet when things they approve breakdown, they have zero liability. Most times small-minded people running other peoples lives.

[BenL]

[ QUOTE ]
Trevor and Chris both correctly pointed out that a properly torqued fastener requires no locking mechanism. Flat washers serve to distribute the applied clamping load. Spring washers serve to make people feel better about themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the inspector was being obnoxious in how he performed his duties, but on the other hand, how is an inspector (or the owner) supposed to determine that the fasteners was correctly torqued?

I like the suggestion of leaving a couple of minor, imperfections for the inspector to find (fortunately the building inspectors who have looked at my house (an ongoing project) have been happy with most of the work that has been done).

[Trevor Booth]

Kalun,
In the event that the spring washer was wound the other way and it dug into the parts as the bolt was tightend you would be unwinding the "spring" and in all probability it would break.

[Trevor Booth]

Robert L,
Registration of an ICV in NSW is not impossible. The problem has arisen from some clowns here in NSW misrepresenting certain things and blokes fronting up with specialist built 8 stack EFI with re-programmable computers and not a hope in hell of meeting ANY emission standards, so the RTA had to act in the interest of other road users. Its the old bad apple story.

Some pre release info for you. The RTA has revised the regulations in relation to emissions. Engines may be up to 3 years old on a rolling basis. Limits are now set for the IM240 test for engines that are not known to comply. HC 0.1, NOx 0.2, CO 0.7, Values are g/klm. If you do the research you will be suprised at what engines you can use.

[DC]

Does anyone have an opinion or information on so-called Binch nuts? These are cross cut at two opposing poistions close to the top of the nut. The cuts are bent to provide resistance to unthreading.

They have been fitted to the peg bolts clamping my disc bells to the front hubs. As I shall be re-assembling the units soon I had intended to fit new ones but are the right product for the job? Flat washers were used.

Owing to the temperatures involved the normal type of nyloc nut can't be used on braking components.

[John W]

Dave,
I think you mean a Cinch nut. I have come across these in the past on older cars and bikes.
For example they used to be used for holding manifolds on ford xflow engines. On newer cars they seem to have been replaced with nuts that have the top deformed slightly.

Have a look here : http://www.staytite.com/products_fset.htm

Btw, I get all my fasteners from one of two companies :
TR Fasteners, or Margnor Fasteners, both in the Guildford area. There is another place called bunnysbolts (spelling could be wrong). All three should be able to get you what you want as long as you can tell them what you want in the first place, if that makes sense [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Cheers,
John.

[Peter D]

Trevor - Holy Cow ! What happened at the RTA ? The 3 year rolling rule actually makes sense (but not as much as a 5 year one like the other States). Standardisation between the States is a wonderful thing :

- 3 years is almost the same as 5 years, I guess
- 4'8.5" rail guage is almost the same as 5'2"
- what's an hour between friends when it comes to daylight saving ?

Still, its a move in the right direction, finally provides a fixed set of goal-posts, & allows ICV builders a reasonable amount of time between planning & final execution.

Any idea on whether the IM240 limits are going to be indexed against changing ADR emissions standards into the future ?

And just in case you thought my comments may indicate a plan to build another ICV - absolutely not !! There is no way I would run either of us through that experience again !! If I go troppo in the future & take on another project, it will be a resto of a previously-registered car built before 1972 !

PS - On the "nuts & bolts" issue, I have used flat washers & nyloc nuts everywhere that does not involve too much heat - good idea or not ?

Kind Regards,

Peter D.

[Trevor Booth]

Peter,
Your nuts and bolts method is OK for your use of the car. A nyloc is very good if a bolt loosens, the nut is unlikely to come off and the bolt fall out.
IM240 limits are set for as long as the IM240 exists. It will only change if not workable or unreasonable.

[daveg]

The body that looks after Kit Car builders and manufactures with regards the SVA is called STATUS (no idea what it stands for [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]) and they do a trific job keeping the actual regs sane.
With regards to the inspectors themselves,in the past they have interpreted the rules how they saw fit,they where HGV inspectors and had the SVA forced on them, some of them resented the fact and went out of there way to be bolchy, Yeading for example has the worst reputation, and in the past prided themselves on the fact that they never passed a self built car the first time [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
I have put three cars through SVA, all at Nottingham, the inspectors are all SVA specific and interested in the job they do, this is the way it seems to be going around the country, and they will allow you to modify (if possible) anything that would be a fail.
When anyone has a car fail the SVA, they usually simply change the offending components,grit teeth and cough up the £50? for a retest, despite the fact that there is an appeals procedure that is fair and works [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I suppose that the fix and retest option is the easier and quicker of the two, pity.

[Frank Catt]

Dave, the test centre mentioned at the first post of this thread was in fact YEADING !

[Brian Magee]

I trailered a car for someone to Yeading for their SVA some years ago. The car failed the first time, one of the faults being the brake balance. On the re-test it passed everything except for the brakes again. It wasn't untill we were driving out that we realised from the paperwork that he had been reading the front and rear brakes the wrong way round. We went back and explained this. We came away with a pass! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Brian.

[91740Gt]

Dave,

They are called Bink nuts and i,ve used them for 30 years especially on braking systems. I,ve honestly never had a failure.

Graham @ GTA.

[Gary Gibbs]

The subject of bolted joints was covered quite well by Carroll Smith and I tend to use it as the gospel.

[Phil]

Gentlemen:
I either use AN hardware mostly for high strength and shear applications where the bolt is a pivot, those 12 point nuts generally stay put, also Lawson makes a good variety of hardware in Uss, SAE, and metric sizes, they are better than grade 8 in strength, and there is a nice locknut available that they call a "C-Type" locknut, no plastic insert, and they really stay put. I favor these in areas such as engine bay etc., anywhere the environment is harsh. I just don't trust nylocks, I have seen too many of these degrade either from chemical, UV or heat, and once that locking material is compromised its just a plain old nut!
Hope this helps a little

[DC]

Thanks John. Interesting variations of spelling. I spoke to Margnor Fastenings, they said it was a Binx nut but not so popular now except where space is tight. Binx is the same size as a normal full nut, but if space allows a Fillidas (Phillidas??) nut is arguably better. This is all metal and simliar in size to a nyloc. Anyway I have gone for this latter type.

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

[ QUOTE ]
nut is arguably better. This is all metal and simliar in size to a nyloc. Anyway I have gone for this latter type.

[/ QUOTE ]

As used by Ford to secure Cosworth Manifold to head (8mm) and Turbo to manifold (10mm) - and Flippin' expensive from Ford!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[John W]

appologies, I didn't know there was such a think as a binx or bink nut. I've heard the name fillidas (sp) but didn't realise they were a slimmer nut than others.
Glad to hear Margnors sorted you out though.

[Paul Bearman]

It's true what the UK guys say about the SVA, they certainly are a law unto themselves. The DVLA/Goverment expect us to conform to a set of 'standards' that are far from standardised!!
As mentioned above, most high speed machines that I have worked on induce high frequency stresses but none utilise spring washers, mainly because of the high probability of failure. We almost always employ torque as a way of pretensioning the bolt & so far have had no failures.
However, the importance of torque in many applications cannot be over emphasised. Critical applications such as engines, brakes & suspension are torque design sensitive. Under torque can result in unnecessary wear of nuts & bolts as well as the parts they are securing together. When in sufficient torque/pressures are applied, uneven loads will be transmitted throughout the assembly which may result in excessive wear or premature failure due to fatigue. Over torque, on the other hand, can be equally detrimental because failure of a nut or bolt from over stressing of the fastener & secured components. Therefore, torque requirements for particular applications should be thoroughly investigated before application.
The first requirement in determining the amount of torque to apply is a thorough understanding of the desired bolt stress i.e the yield strength of the bolt material. The induced stress/torque is normally recommended not to exceed 80% of the yield strength of the bolt/fastener.