Just wondering

Hi Guys

First post here although I have been reading this forum for a few years now. I was sad to hear about RF's problems, I seem to be rather unlucky. A few years back I was in discussions with GT40NZ (I am a New Zealander), I confirmed with them what I wanted, they put my name to a chassis, sent me photos, I sent e-mail to arrange payment, then never heard back. They closed down of course. Next I was about to place an order with RF and the put their prices up. So I remained in China to earn a bit more dollar to cover the increase, then this trouble. I am happy say I did not confirm or pay a deposit. The RCR product is now looking mighty attractive.

I saw a comment in the RF thread that high quality, low margin is what is hurting these manufactures. I know in NZ and Aus that skilled tradesmen are getting harder to come by hence wages are increasing. My question is, why is this type of work still carried out in these countries? Welding and fibreglass work I mean. I am based in China and everyday I see people and factories that can do this type of work as good as anyone back home and for 1/10th the wage (sometimes less!). Materials are cheap, rent is nothing. Companies here are happy to CNC, cast for low quantity orders. It seems that maybe a GT40 company can gain an advantage but shifting production out of developed countries and into developing ones.

I am of course just thinking aloud here. I have no idea what red tape would be involved in doing this. And more importantly I have no idea how fellow enthusiasts looking to purchase in the near future would feel about buying a Chinese product.

I would welcome any opinion on this.

Cheers Neil

BTW if anyone in NZ is looking at the RCR product I would like to make contact.
 
Hi neil
Being in the UK I dont have much knowledge of the RF make but I would think there are a few issues with a Chinese built car.
Although the cost could be much lower and I'm afraid to say the quality would probably be good, if there was a problem you couldn't just take it back. There's also this issue of buying foreign goods which in turn results in job losses at home.
In my business we have been almost forced to buy steel related products which originate from China and eastern Europe and although we all at heart want to buy British unfortunately British industry is now ' shiiiiiiit 'and if we dont buy foreign goods we will eventually go down the pan.
Some say China could be a military threat, I think they wont have to fight the west, just stop selling us goods and we'll cease to be in no time.
Even in the UK there are only a few people building 40's Tornado probably being the largest, the rest all low key.
I did once consider starting a company building 40's but my own business was still growing and unless you can put 110% in you should't start it.
The good thing about ordering a Chinese 40 is that they could come with menu of numbers on them
ie 49, 56, 87 but they would all be in yellow and a little smaller.
It would be interesting to hear other comments.
Best Regards
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/censored.gif
 
lol, I like that last bit!!

Keith, I agree with you on quality, it is a major concern when trying to manufacture goods like a GT40. When you see how much effort and pride owners put into building them (and I very much enjoy seeing such workmanship in the builder's section) you must give them a good base to start from. I do not believe ability is tied to race. But what I find is too many Chinese engineers and production staff lack personal pride. I know that if I make something, even at cost, I will do it the best I can because I do not feel good about myself if I do a shi*ty job. Maybe this is the reason why these manufactures are failing, the cost to the consumer just not justify(?) the the amount of work that goes into the car. They don't want to increase cost so as to remain competitive but they also will not reduce quality. I see on the NZF40 (ferrai rep) site, they have decided not to sell completed cars or even kits for the same reason (damn it!), too much work not enough reward.

Like you I don't want to see jobs lost back home, I came here as my old employer closed the NZ factory and opened one here. It was sad that many of my friends lost there jobs but there was no other choice. Who knows how many of the other GT40 companies are stuggling. I would hate to see more close, less competion out there and remaining companies needing to increase costs to survive. I personally would not care where the basic kit came from as long as the quality was up to standard. And being in NZ, it is just a difficult so send it back to the US or UK as it would be to China. If anyone asked me where the finished car was made, I would not say China, The US or Aus, I would answer 'in my garage'.

But then again maybe I am talking rubbish and other companies are making a healthy profit.

Cheers, Neil
 
Hi Neil

Interesting post.

I don't see the source of manufacture of particular components as a problem. I know manufacturers who have looked at outsourcing bodywork, chassis manufacture to places such as China, Taiwan, and Eastern Europe, all of which are now offer a whole lot cheaper labour than SA. These include some big US and UK names in the replica and component car industry. For example one of the Taiwan factories already manufactures components for BMW and a couple of other big name manufacturers. One of the Eastern European factories makes a stack of stuff for VW Group etc. So quality is really not a problem, as you say. Both of these firms were also interested in discussing low volume component/chassis/bodywork manufacture.

IMHO, provided that you are dealing with a reputable manufacturer with a local footing, it doesn't matter where they outsource the manufacture of components (provided that they are <u>in control</u> of the offshore relationship). It would appear that the trick is to be certain that the company you are buying from is financially sound and not expanding its business to a point of overtrading... A credit report and the last annual accounts can only tell you so much, but at least they offer some warnings.

All that said, from everything I hear, an RCR40 is stacking up to be a fantastic proposition.

I hope your luck changes!
 
If I could give a slightly different take on the question, you might ask why we don’t simply move production to a country where the labour is cheaper. I ask why it is that economists and governments seem to have a preoccupation with having a strong currency, forcing manufacturing overseas?

It is no secret for example that most of Japan’s recent economic problems were caused by a runaway strong Yen. Conversely, many Asian economies with weak currencies and stable governments have economies that are moving in leaps and bounds.

For an example closer to home, I don’t think that I am breaking any confidences when I say that RF went to South Africa to regain the competitive edge that it previously enjoyed in Australia. In a matter of two short years, the Australian dollar went from $US 0.47 to $US 0.70 and beyond, which would have made it near impossible for exporting companies like RF to survive. In the meantime I can’t say that, as an Australian, I have noticed any corresponding improvement in my lifestyle as a result of the stronger $AUS, but I have seen many manufacturing companies go under or go overseas over that same period.

This is a question that probably has a very simple answer, but it eludes me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
All very interesting

BUT it was done before!

The DAX project was made by DJ Sportscars in the UK (OK they made it a 42 and is the only car I can get into) - reasonably successful and someone came along and bought the jigs molds etc.

He shipped it all to India to get a break on the cheaper labour.

He flew over to India and was in a light plane flying to a small center when the light plane flew into a mountain! No body survived.

Where is everything now? Probably still locked up in Indian Red Tape and fully rusted in the container on the dock side of some Indian port. But that ended the Dax 40 production.

Perhaps it is time for lateral thinking? The bodies seem to be the limiting factor on production. And as the cars are replicas could it be an option to make up a space frame type structure and bolt on plastic polimer wings etc. Mercedes does it on the A class, Smart cars are almost all plastic Citroen use it for under valance and no doubt other manufacturers are doing the same. Yes the mold would be expensive for the injection process but after that an injected body panel would be quick!

Again just a thought

Ian
 
[ QUOTE ]
BUT it was done before!

The DAX project was made by DJ Sportscars in the UK (OK they made it a 42 and is the only car I can get into) - reasonably successful and someone came along and bought the jigs molds etc.

He shipped it all to India to get a break on the cheaper labour.

He flew over to India and was in a light plane flying to a small center when the light plane flew into a mountain! No body survived.

Where is everything now? Probably still locked up in Indian Red Tape and fully rusted in the container on the dock side of some Indian port. But that ended the Dax 40 production.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it was not done before ...? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Interesting! I did not know that Dax story. I remember from when I built my Lotus 7 rep a few years back, the Dax Rush was one of the most potent versions out there. It sounds like a real shame, I am sure the Dax car would have passed a few evolutions by now and would be a very strong package.

As I see it, quality can be controlled anywhere given the right circumstance. In China they already make Honda's, Toyota's and even MERCEDES. Comparably GT40's are pretty simple.

I don't just see Chinese (or Indian) production as a way for a manufacturer to increase their profit. I see it as a way to offer more to a customer. Really, the US$35,000 price range for a relatively complete DIY kit is a fair price, keeps the dreamers away, maybe it can come down a bit using with lower cost materials/labour etc. But I think given the same price a more completed car can be offered. Am I wrong in thinking the difference between a 1/3 built semi complete kit verses a 2/3 built semi complete kit is mainly labour? Good labour in China is 1500rmb (US$185) per month. From what I can see in the Builder's section, building one of these cars is a slowish process, a few hours here a few hours there. With good production line practices a manufacture could offer a product that would allow the customer to be on the road six months sooner than they would with a competitors product and most likely with higher quality!

Still just thinking out loud...... I am glad no one so far has taken offence at the suggestion.

Cheers, Neil
 
Mmmm, I think the biggest problem for a manufacturer with outsourcing to China is copy protection, this coupled with volume required by most factories over there.

I have first hand experience of outsourcing to China and whilst the savings are huge and quality as good as here it does at this stage seem no better.

We have a loom made over there for £3 that cost £18 pounds to manufacture here. the £3 includes delivery to the UK. But it took a year to setup and the miniumum order is 5000, failure rate is 1 in 500 and normally easily rectified.

But more companies are using this avenue for labour intensive production.

I believe a time will come where it will be possible to outsource to several differnt operations making sure they are all in dark about what they are producing. I am investigating some steel fabrication work over there at the moment, but cloning is a real problem.
 
On an international market the many economies are constantly changing in relation to each other so over the long term the only solution for taking advantage for this is to either have many international manufacturing sites as the major car manufacturers do, or continuously be "on the move". Kind of like the nomadic hunter.
An extremely organized and energetic business man could probably "subcontract" hunderds of GT40 components from hundreds of sources over seas so as not to give anyone too much intellectual property or control over his product and have assembly/packaging plants in the actual markets he plans to sell in. Relying on many suppliers would require strict controls for quality checking and also a larger inventory on hand to avoid crippling supply glitches but would also provide the most competitive manufacturing atmosphere.
The real question is.... How could a semi-custom, specialty car like the GT40 fit into tight enough design criteria that could allow this type of manufacture AND give customers options on the build? I could only see this working for a 1 option kit. (ie only 1 engine block option, 1 trans option, 1 brake option, etc.)
It seems that the US market is all about customization and testosterone points. The cookie cutter crowd all buy Corvettes!
 
This is an interesting discussion. I would bet that if any manufacturer were to invest the huge amount of time and effort necessary to have large parts of a GT40 fabricated in China, that a separate Chinese company would pop up within 18 months offering an identical product at a reduced price (the cost difference being due to elimination of development and prototyping costs). That's the way things work in China.
 
Hi All,
My name is Arnie Smith and I work with RCR. Having worked with Fran Hall since the start of RCR and in the automotive field for the past 20 I think I can address this subject with a little insight.
The use of China for the manufacture of auto components has been very attractive for the large (Ford, GM, VW,…) companies. China built components are finding their way into many cars and trucks built for the North American market. This works for them because they buy thousands of pieces at a time.
For a company like RCR, Chinese sourced components, at this time, would not add an economic advantage to the product or for the customer. RCR strives to deliver the best it can for the best value so currently that means dealing with as many local suppliers as possible. When I mention local, I don’t just mean SE Michigan, I mean on the same continent.
This is not to say that RCR would not use China sourced components, but it must add to the overall value to the product. Currently we use some of the best suppliers that we can. And, because they are local, we can drive down the street and see a part made, call to the next time zone to place an order or fly out for a lunch meeting and be home to our families by dinner.
Thanks for allowing me my 2 cents.
 
Basic problems with sourcing GT40 bodies/chassis from Asia
include:

1.Volume too low...this is a custom car market
2.Shipping costs too high...these things are big/bulky
3.Too much risk...you could be shut down on a moments
notice due to political issues

If someone like FFR who pumps out thousands of Cobras
doesn't see an advantage in sourcing from Asis...then I doubt anyone selling GT40s would ever realize one.

Let's not forget that RF didn't have to move to SA
to stay in business...it was Robert's choice since
he wanted to sell aggressively to Europe and America.

MikeD
 
Cheers guys for you responses. All very good points. It looks like I am in the minority here thinking there would be an advantage, and perhaps the only person who may have agreed with me is spread out over a Indian mountainside. After reading my posts again I think that no one would sell me a car now, they would be too worried I'd start rolling them off a production line somewhere in China:)

Cheers, Neil
 
Nice one Neil. You're right. If the Chinese had really wanted to manufacture a GT40 they'd have bought a Tornado, taken some moulds off it, tooled up and copied it.

Cheers, and good luck in your quest.
 
Hi Neil, The thing with the replica GT40 is that it ends up being an individual car for each builder or owner, If you try to lock it down to fixed design which type do you adopt- spaceframe, monocoque, all alloy or even composite. Leave $$$ out of it for now and look at the intended use for each owner- race, show,road car etc. Each use has pro's/con's as to design type. If Ford instead of building the "GT" had elected to simply continue from where they left off in the 60's would the car have been a showroom success? I doubt it as the public would have wanted it "civilised" after a couple of weeks.
If I wanted a car for racing only I would opt for a spaceframe from the point of repairs due to damage, for show a mono would be a must as the purists would drive me nuts with their comments, and as a driver the RCR alloy mono or ERA stainless mono would be a plus if the $$ were not a problem,If the $ is a factor the the spaceframe concept is hard to beat especially in kit format.
One way you might be able to help the industry would be look at hard to get parts like- w/screens ,uprights,transmissions, wheels etc, that seem to fetch a premium $$ and have these made available to the whole kit car scene. Better be quick though, the others have read it here now!!
Good Luck and dont forget the discount for fellow Kiwi's!!
Cheers Jack.
 

Bill Hara

Old Hand
GT40s Supporter
Jack, you may have just caught onto something there, I know that Audi make cars in China under license and they also manufacture the Audi transaxles there too. Some years ago I sent an email to a company (?) that make them but got no response.
A steady supply chain of these transmissions especially 01E boxes would be the type of parts the rest of the world would lap up.
Neil, this way you could have a car in no time... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Rob, I think there are two main reasons why someone here has not tried already. First is that they have no idea what a GT40/Cobra is. Second is that they would not be allowed on the roads here, therefore they would need to sell to an overseas market. Have I thought about doing this? Of course I have. Would I do it? No. Unfortunately have too many morals to rip of someones product.

Jack, what I most like about the RCR product is that is a mono for the price of a spaceframe. Really, that Al tub looks so nice, esp the welding, I would be inclined not add any interior just to show it off.

And Bill, do you have any details you can send me re the box, I am in Shanghai at the moment looking (unsuccessfully) for a new job, chasing this up will give me something to do other than sitting in Starbucks all day tapping on this computer and drinking mocha's I can not afford.

Cheers, Neil
 
Hi Neil, I think you missed my point, If you were to set up a small venture of your own or in conjunction with others you could specialise in limited runs of say front uprights cast and machined to your dwgs but not assembled. Only you would know what parts were reqd to complete the jigsaw and as such would give you some protection against others copying it as they wouldnt know the end use for the product, and with production runs limited why bother. Get it right and you would not need another job!!! If nothing else it would give you an appreciation of what the guys who try to set up replica companys etc have to deal with.
Part of the reason behind the RCR/ERA choice was the no rust factor .

Regards Jack.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason behind the RCR/ERA choice was the no rust factor .


[/ QUOTE ]

And you think Aliminium doesn't rust (corrode)?
 
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