Ford GT, Ford GT40 Name Discussion
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Re: Why did they name it that?
From the Circuit "the la rumor" I got the following story:
Someone from the middle east would have registered the GT40 as a legal name and therefore somehow Ford should have payed royalties to the legal owner of the GT40 name holder (or so). Also this person should have recieved the first Ford GT (serial 1) from Ford.
I don't know if this is true or even if some part are true but i wish i was that person .....
rockonsmile
From the Circuit "the la rumor" I got the following story:
Someone from the middle east would have registered the GT40 as a legal name and therefore somehow Ford should have payed royalties to the legal owner of the GT40 name holder (or so). Also this person should have recieved the first Ford GT (serial 1) from Ford.
I don't know if this is true or even if some part are true but i wish i was that person .....
rockonsmile
Re: Why did they name it that?
Safir Spares owned the trademark GT40 and when Ford wanted it for the new car the numbers got too high in the negotiation between Safir and Ford. Ford said screw it we'll just call it the Ford GT. My take is a small business with an opportunity of a lifetime missed a dream deal by getting greedy.
Chris
Historic Race Car Replicas
Safir Spares owned the trademark GT40 and when Ford wanted it for the new car the numbers got too high in the negotiation between Safir and Ford. Ford said screw it we'll just call it the Ford GT. My take is a small business with an opportunity of a lifetime missed a dream deal by getting greedy.
Chris
Historic Race Car Replicas
Ron Earp
Admin
Re: Why did they name it that?
If you want the story straight from Bob Wood, of Safir, then you can read it on this thread.
Why the Ford GT is not a GT40
Interesting and straight from the "horse's mouth" not from rumor or hearsay.
Ron
If you want the story straight from Bob Wood, of Safir, then you can read it on this thread.
Why the Ford GT is not a GT40
Interesting and straight from the "horse's mouth" not from rumor or hearsay.
Ron
Re: Why did they name it that?
Thanks, Ron. (I'm wading through the info as I type.) Well, it's nice to know, but if the legend holds true that the 1960's car was named for it's "Forty-inch Height"- Couldn't Ford have used GT44 without reprisal? (Or maybe no one left at the oval is that bright?)
Thanks, Ron. (I'm wading through the info as I type.) Well, it's nice to know, but if the legend holds true that the 1960's car was named for it's "Forty-inch Height"- Couldn't Ford have used GT44 without reprisal? (Or maybe no one left at the oval is that bright?)
Re: Why did they name it that?
Boy I stand corrected. Missed this thread last summer.
Thanks Ron
Chris
Boy I stand corrected. Missed this thread last summer.
Thanks Ron
Chris
Re: Why did they name it that?
That's an interesting take....did Safir buy the "GT 40" name which never existed? Can we call the new one the GT 44 despite what's scripted on the rocker panels?
Thank you all for your time and replies...I realize that, being without a GT myself, its an academic discussion until I work up the knowledge and/or money to get into the game myself.
EDIT- By the way, my name is Ed. E.D.C. is my legal monogram, but I won't bother you with details on myself until such time as warranted. (See above.)
That's an interesting take....did Safir buy the "GT 40" name which never existed? Can we call the new one the GT 44 despite what's scripted on the rocker panels?
Thank you all for your time and replies...I realize that, being without a GT myself, its an academic discussion until I work up the knowledge and/or money to get into the game myself.
EDIT- By the way, my name is Ed. E.D.C. is my legal monogram, but I won't bother you with details on myself until such time as warranted. (See above.)
Re: Why did they name it that?
They also can call that as "Ford Luigi", ...will even remain the nicest one of the whole cathegory, who cares
Paolo
They also can call that as "Ford Luigi", ...will even remain the nicest one of the whole cathegory, who cares
Paolo
Re: Why did they name it that?
As I understood it from 1964 the Ford raciing program was called the "Ford GT". I have press releases from 1966 calling the Ford GTMKII. It was the British press that made the name Ford GT40 stick. Safir got the rights to the name GT40. But they could not call their cars Ford GT40. They were not Ford manufactured and had to call them powered by Ford. The Ford GT project covered cars that were not Ford GT40 like the MKIV (J) car. So I think its approporiate that the new Ford GT was so named.
As for the thread that was mentioned about the bodyshape. I recall when Ferrari got its act together did they not legally stop the manufacturers of a 1980's Tessa rossa replica because of bodyshape??? Now they license models i.e. Mattel and I am sure that would apply to the full size replicas and to the GT40 body shape. Especially the 1966 MKII P1046 and 1968/69 P1075 winners.
Regards Allan
As I understood it from 1964 the Ford raciing program was called the "Ford GT". I have press releases from 1966 calling the Ford GTMKII. It was the British press that made the name Ford GT40 stick. Safir got the rights to the name GT40. But they could not call their cars Ford GT40. They were not Ford manufactured and had to call them powered by Ford. The Ford GT project covered cars that were not Ford GT40 like the MKIV (J) car. So I think its approporiate that the new Ford GT was so named.
As for the thread that was mentioned about the bodyshape. I recall when Ferrari got its act together did they not legally stop the manufacturers of a 1980's Tessa rossa replica because of bodyshape??? Now they license models i.e. Mattel and I am sure that would apply to the full size replicas and to the GT40 body shape. Especially the 1966 MKII P1046 and 1968/69 P1075 winners.
Regards Allan
Re: Why did they name it that?
Allan,
Great information!
I got to thinking about the "GT40" name , and how that all came about.
Now keep in mind, I am not an expert about this, but I recall reading that years (like alot of years) ago, the actual height of the GT40 was listed as 39.5" tall. When anyone (reading: Journalist for a car magazine) would list the height of a GT40, it usually listed 40" as the measurement. So I dug through my library of books to do a little research. Most of the books list the height measurement as 39.5" to 40.5" for height for the MkI & MkIIs, and the MkIVs are listed as 38.5". With the difference in measurements, I dug a little further, and this is what I found:
"The height of the GT40s appears to have varying heights." The difference in the heights appears to be the difference of a street car VS: a race car, and sometimes a journalist would not be aware of the difference. To some people, they all looked like race cars, right? In addition, the ride height of race cars varied due to the track the car was running at due to the spring rates and settings. So it was pretty easy to say the ride height of a GT40 was 39.5" in race trim, a journalist walked up and got his tape measure out and said, yup, 39.5"......and reported and confirmed 40" anyway. Maybe it was an average?
In my opinion, it makes for great debate. In my tape measure, when I pull it out to confirm the ride height of a GT40, the tape will read...38-40-40-40-42. And I paid good money for that tape measure! The simple way to confirm the ride height of a GT40!epper:
OK folks, let'r fly!
Gary Kadrmas
Allan,
Great information!
I got to thinking about the "GT40" name , and how that all came about.
Now keep in mind, I am not an expert about this, but I recall reading that years (like alot of years) ago, the actual height of the GT40 was listed as 39.5" tall. When anyone (reading: Journalist for a car magazine) would list the height of a GT40, it usually listed 40" as the measurement. So I dug through my library of books to do a little research. Most of the books list the height measurement as 39.5" to 40.5" for height for the MkI & MkIIs, and the MkIVs are listed as 38.5". With the difference in measurements, I dug a little further, and this is what I found:
"The height of the GT40s appears to have varying heights." The difference in the heights appears to be the difference of a street car VS: a race car, and sometimes a journalist would not be aware of the difference. To some people, they all looked like race cars, right? In addition, the ride height of race cars varied due to the track the car was running at due to the spring rates and settings. So it was pretty easy to say the ride height of a GT40 was 39.5" in race trim, a journalist walked up and got his tape measure out and said, yup, 39.5"......and reported and confirmed 40" anyway. Maybe it was an average?
In my opinion, it makes for great debate. In my tape measure, when I pull it out to confirm the ride height of a GT40, the tape will read...38-40-40-40-42. And I paid good money for that tape measure! The simple way to confirm the ride height of a GT40!
epper: OK folks, let'r fly!
Gary Kadrmas
Re: Why did they name it that?
Hi Gary
I suppose tyre pressures and ride hight would influence the height of the "Forty".
But my only problem is people actually calling the MKIV (J) a GT40 when it is a completly different car. In terms of height and construction and interchangeablity of panels with the MKI, MKII and MKIII GT40's.
I have nothing against the MKIV (J).
But the Ford GT project encompassed the 1963/4 Lola GT MKVI, the 1966/7 J car, the 1967 MKIV and lead indirectly to the 1967 M1 Mirage. And onto the 1967 Honker II (this lead to the (P68/69), the 1967 Ford G7A (MKIV based) and the 1967 King Cobra which was actually named the Cougar.
So which of these are Forties????
Regards Allan
Hi Gary
I suppose tyre pressures and ride hight would influence the height of the "Forty".
But my only problem is people actually calling the MKIV (J) a GT40 when it is a completly different car. In terms of height and construction and interchangeablity of panels with the MKI, MKII and MKIII GT40's.
I have nothing against the MKIV (J).
But the Ford GT project encompassed the 1963/4 Lola GT MKVI, the 1966/7 J car, the 1967 MKIV and lead indirectly to the 1967 M1 Mirage. And onto the 1967 Honker II (this lead to the (P68/69), the 1967 Ford G7A (MKIV based) and the 1967 King Cobra which was actually named the Cougar.
So which of these are Forties????
Regards Allan
Re: Why did they name it that?
Allan,
My statement above: "The height of the GT40s appears to have varying heights.".....was from a magazine article that addressed the overall height of GT40s in the MkI, II, & III versions.
The book by Ronnie Spain, "GT40", (and I hope I do not get sued for this) in Chapter 11, page 178/179 shows heights listed as: Original Prototype (40.5), MkI (40.5), MkIII (41), MkII (40.5), MkIIB (40.5), J-Car (38.5), and MkIV (38.6). After revisiting his book, and paying close attention to the Chapters that covered the MkIVs, I do have to agree that nowhere could I find the author referring to the MkIV as a GT40. It was always listed as just the MkIV.
My post was not intended to hit anyones nerve. I was just trying to share some information regarding the height of the different cars that I know as GT40s. (MkI, II, & III). I have said in several of my post that I am not an expert, but I do like GT40s....., even the MkIV. Opps, did I just call the MkIV a GT40?
Thanks,
Gary Kadrmas
Allan,
My statement above: "The height of the GT40s appears to have varying heights.".....was from a magazine article that addressed the overall height of GT40s in the MkI, II, & III versions.
The book by Ronnie Spain, "GT40", (and I hope I do not get sued for this) in Chapter 11, page 178/179 shows heights listed as: Original Prototype (40.5), MkI (40.5), MkIII (41), MkII (40.5), MkIIB (40.5), J-Car (38.5), and MkIV (38.6). After revisiting his book, and paying close attention to the Chapters that covered the MkIVs, I do have to agree that nowhere could I find the author referring to the MkIV as a GT40. It was always listed as just the MkIV.
My post was not intended to hit anyones nerve. I was just trying to share some information regarding the height of the different cars that I know as GT40s. (MkI, II, & III). I have said in several of my post that I am not an expert, but I do like GT40s....., even the MkIV. Opps, did I just call the MkIV a GT40?
Thanks,
Gary Kadrmas
Re: Why did they name it that?
Hi Gary
It was not you I was getting at for calling a MKIV a GT40. It seems that quite a few car magazines in the UK call the MKIV a MKIV GT40 as well as the diecast model makers Exoto.
Also they Motor Sport and Classiccars have been using the revamped P1008 as an example of a real MKII (when its obviously not)
I am no expert but would like to get things right.
Regards Allan
Hi Gary
It was not you I was getting at for calling a MKIV a GT40. It seems that quite a few car magazines in the UK call the MKIV a MKIV GT40 as well as the diecast model makers Exoto.
Also they Motor Sport and Classiccars have been using the revamped P1008 as an example of a real MKII (when its obviously not)
I am no expert but would like to get things right.
Regards Allan
Re: Why did they name it that?
Allan,
Thanks. I thought for a minute I ticked you off.
I always try and research something before I make a comment. And if I am uncertain about it, I tell everyone upfront.
To be honest with you......Their is a guy here in the Portland area that was on the Shelby Team in 1967. He refers to the team he was on as the GT40 program, and it was a MkIV. Based on what you stated, it would be correct to state he was on the MkIV program, but I think fewer people know the car designation as a MkIV vs. what program the MkIV evolved from....the GT40.
Gary Kadrmas
Allan,
Thanks. I thought for a minute I ticked you off.
I always try and research something before I make a comment. And if I am uncertain about it, I tell everyone upfront.
To be honest with you......Their is a guy here in the Portland area that was on the Shelby Team in 1967. He refers to the team he was on as the GT40 program, and it was a MkIV. Based on what you stated, it would be correct to state he was on the MkIV program, but I think fewer people know the car designation as a MkIV vs. what program the MkIV evolved from....the GT40.
Gary Kadrmas
Re: Why did they name it that?
Wow, all of these years later the question still is raised, and the answers are all so varied! Thank you, Ron, for directing people to my post of last summer.
The cars were definitely called "GT40" by the factory, and the program was designated "GT40" by the factory. As development was progressing, the factory prepared and delivered several SAE (the Society of Automotive Engineers) Technical Papers outlining to those in attendance (automotive engineer members of the "society") the nature of this interesting engineering/racing program that Ford had undertaken. The papers were of a technical nature (hence the designation "technical paper"!) discussing issues that would be interesting to the engineer members in attendance. The papers discussed the brakes (their design and testing), the engine (dynamometer testing to failure), the aerodynamics (HP lost by the cooling and ducting systems), and other topics which I do not recall at this time. However, in all of the papers, Ford referred to the program as their "GT40" program.
Once the "prototypes" (the first 12 cars) were done and the "production" cars were being produced by F.A.V., all of the cars made had the "P" (production) in the serial number; which serial number began "GT40". If the serial number, the soul of any car, begins with "GT40", then someone would be hard-pressed to argue that the "GT40" was just a nickname.
Ford today in a clandestine fashion, and one that annoys me personally, has incorporated the number "40" into each serial number on the new GTs. The standard serial number designation legislated by the government allows 6 places for consecutive numbers at the end of the official serial number, which six places allow for one million cars to be produced (000000-999999). One million cars is a huge run of any model; VW bugs, the Mustang, original Minis were produced in those quantities. Ford was going to use only 4 of the six digit places in producing 4000+/- vehicles. Ford could have simply run consecutive numbers from 000001 to 004000 with no problems. However, the first two unused digit places on all of the cars have been filled with "40". I know of no other reason to have used that number other than to get the "40" somewhere into the "soul" of the vehicle.
The program was officially the "GT40" program at Ford. The "nickname" spin of 2002 was to cover the fact that Ford would not offer Safir and was not willing to pay Safir any money for the "GT40" trademark.
I love this forum! It gives me and Safir a place to get the truth to the people who should have it the most, true Ford enthusiasts. Great job, Ron!
Bob Wood
Wow, all of these years later the question still is raised, and the answers are all so varied! Thank you, Ron, for directing people to my post of last summer.
The cars were definitely called "GT40" by the factory, and the program was designated "GT40" by the factory. As development was progressing, the factory prepared and delivered several SAE (the Society of Automotive Engineers) Technical Papers outlining to those in attendance (automotive engineer members of the "society") the nature of this interesting engineering/racing program that Ford had undertaken. The papers were of a technical nature (hence the designation "technical paper"!) discussing issues that would be interesting to the engineer members in attendance. The papers discussed the brakes (their design and testing), the engine (dynamometer testing to failure), the aerodynamics (HP lost by the cooling and ducting systems), and other topics which I do not recall at this time. However, in all of the papers, Ford referred to the program as their "GT40" program.
Once the "prototypes" (the first 12 cars) were done and the "production" cars were being produced by F.A.V., all of the cars made had the "P" (production) in the serial number; which serial number began "GT40". If the serial number, the soul of any car, begins with "GT40", then someone would be hard-pressed to argue that the "GT40" was just a nickname.
Ford today in a clandestine fashion, and one that annoys me personally, has incorporated the number "40" into each serial number on the new GTs. The standard serial number designation legislated by the government allows 6 places for consecutive numbers at the end of the official serial number, which six places allow for one million cars to be produced (000000-999999). One million cars is a huge run of any model; VW bugs, the Mustang, original Minis were produced in those quantities. Ford was going to use only 4 of the six digit places in producing 4000+/- vehicles. Ford could have simply run consecutive numbers from 000001 to 004000 with no problems. However, the first two unused digit places on all of the cars have been filled with "40". I know of no other reason to have used that number other than to get the "40" somewhere into the "soul" of the vehicle.
The program was officially the "GT40" program at Ford. The "nickname" spin of 2002 was to cover the fact that Ford would not offer Safir and was not willing to pay Safir any money for the "GT40" trademark.
I love this forum! It gives me and Safir a place to get the truth to the people who should have it the most, true Ford enthusiasts. Great job, Ron!
Bob Wood
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
Re: Why did they name it that?
Bob,
I would like to ask about something that predates the whole Ford vs Safir thing. I have been approached several times concerning how Safir came to own the rights to the GT40 name, at least in the United States. Do you have anything you can share with us on that issue?
I have asked Lee Holman to participate in this thread, but he has apparently decided not to do that. Never the less, I think it is somewhat well known that he has opinions about the trademark applications process in gaining the rights to the moniker. The arguments seem to revolve around the description of exactly when and how the term GT40 came into use that Safir used in the US trademark application. I am not sure if there are others that share these opinions, but I, for one, would like to hear the Safir side of the story, if that is possible.
Thanks,
Lynn
Bob,
I would like to ask about something that predates the whole Ford vs Safir thing. I have been approached several times concerning how Safir came to own the rights to the GT40 name, at least in the United States. Do you have anything you can share with us on that issue?
I have asked Lee Holman to participate in this thread, but he has apparently decided not to do that. Never the less, I think it is somewhat well known that he has opinions about the trademark applications process in gaining the rights to the moniker. The arguments seem to revolve around the description of exactly when and how the term GT40 came into use that Safir used in the US trademark application. I am not sure if there are others that share these opinions, but I, for one, would like to hear the Safir side of the story, if that is possible.
Thanks,
Lynn
Re: Why did they name it that?
Bob
you state The cars were definitely called "GT40" by the factory,
The 1964 car that evolved from the Lola MK6 was called the Ford GT. The initial program that encompassed the car was called the Ford GT program
When was this because I have press releases for the MKII that Just call it Ford MKII. I have a copy of the SAE papers and since they show the MKII they must be 1965/66 vintage.
According to Ronnie Spains book it would seem that P1006 definitive nose defined the run of the P numbered Ford GT40's. Since P1000 tub was delivered in March 1965 but the car not delivered built until 17/1/66 It would seem from his book that in May 1965 at the time of the Nurburgring the designation GT40 was applied to the 1000's series chassis run started at FAV Slough. Even though P1001 was first built as a dummy engineless show car 30/3/65 and then rebuilt in 1966 as a proper car. P1002 was ready on the 13/5/65 but P1004 preceed it by being despatched on the 3/5/65. So it was nearly a year from the Ford GT name being revised to Ford GT40.
Did they name the Ford GT; the Ford GT40 when they only started the 1000 series production run. As this meant I assume the cars would be eligable for the Prototype Group 4 class in racing?
Why not name the Prototype and all the 12 GT prefixed cars The Ford GT40
from conception? The MKII 427 were still called that in the 1965 Le Mans?
And although as you say the 1966 Le Mans Ford GT40's all had the P prefix. Why were official Ford press releases still calling the MKII that with no reference to GT40??
Regards Allan
Bob
you state The cars were definitely called "GT40" by the factory,
The 1964 car that evolved from the Lola MK6 was called the Ford GT. The initial program that encompassed the car was called the Ford GT program
When was this because I have press releases for the MKII that Just call it Ford MKII. I have a copy of the SAE papers and since they show the MKII they must be 1965/66 vintage.
According to Ronnie Spains book it would seem that P1006 definitive nose defined the run of the P numbered Ford GT40's. Since P1000 tub was delivered in March 1965 but the car not delivered built until 17/1/66 It would seem from his book that in May 1965 at the time of the Nurburgring the designation GT40 was applied to the 1000's series chassis run started at FAV Slough. Even though P1001 was first built as a dummy engineless show car 30/3/65 and then rebuilt in 1966 as a proper car. P1002 was ready on the 13/5/65 but P1004 preceed it by being despatched on the 3/5/65. So it was nearly a year from the Ford GT name being revised to Ford GT40.
Did they name the Ford GT; the Ford GT40 when they only started the 1000 series production run. As this meant I assume the cars would be eligable for the Prototype Group 4 class in racing?
Why not name the Prototype and all the 12 GT prefixed cars The Ford GT40
from conception? The MKII 427 were still called that in the 1965 Le Mans?
And although as you say the 1966 Le Mans Ford GT40's all had the P prefix. Why were official Ford press releases still calling the MKII that with no reference to GT40??
Regards Allan
