Carroll Shelby vs Factory Five Racing
- Thread starter Bill D
- Start date
Bill
There is a long thread about just that. Check it out:
Ford Motor Company v. Safir GT40 Spares, Ltd
In a nutshell it says that as a replica GT40 owner you have to release ownership to a (self) appointed Shelby Representative.
Just mail me the key and the pink slip and I will make sure that the old man will go easy on you. I can have a Flatbed out your way tomorrow. Rear wheel or not. You will get a non tax deductible receipt for transfer of ownership. So don't bother to read that thread. Just act as instructed.
Mike
I also have some great ocean view property in Barstow, Calif. for sale.....
There is a long thread about just that. Check it out:
Ford Motor Company v. Safir GT40 Spares, Ltd
In a nutshell it says that as a replica GT40 owner you have to release ownership to a (self) appointed Shelby Representative.
Just mail me the key and the pink slip and I will make sure that the old man will go easy on you. I can have a Flatbed out your way tomorrow. Rear wheel or not. You will get a non tax deductible receipt for transfer of ownership. So don't bother to read that thread. Just act as instructed.
Mike
I also have some great ocean view property in Barstow, Calif. for sale.....
Looks like he's suing over Eleanor, too....
RFCExpress - Carroll Shelby et al v. Denice Shakarian Halicki et al
I thought this was all decided once.......maybe Shelby is a slow learner?
Slightly edited (mostly legal precedents & legal case numbers deleted) from ERA's website, but available with a Google search:
"Even if Shelby is able to prove that he is the source of the Cobra car (i.e. the producer), he has failed to present any evidence that consumers associate the Cobra design with Shelby, and Shelby alone as source.....Shelby has submitted survey evidence, compiled by Dr. Jessica Pollner ("Pollner"), a statistician of Price Waterhouse Coopers LLC, who performed face-to-face interviews with sports-car hobbyists at one industry trade show. Although the survey establishes an association between the Cobra design and Shelby, that is insufficient to support a reasonable jury finding in Shelby's favor on the issue of secondary meaning. Rather, Shelby must prove that the primary significance of the Cobra shape in the minds of consumers is to identify Shelby as the single producer.....He cannot."
Score: Shelby 0, Defendants 1
Doug
RFCExpress - Carroll Shelby et al v. Denice Shakarian Halicki et al
I thought this was all decided once.......maybe Shelby is a slow learner?
Slightly edited (mostly legal precedents & legal case numbers deleted) from ERA's website, but available with a Google search:
"Even if Shelby is able to prove that he is the source of the Cobra car (i.e. the producer), he has failed to present any evidence that consumers associate the Cobra design with Shelby, and Shelby alone as source.....Shelby has submitted survey evidence, compiled by Dr. Jessica Pollner ("Pollner"), a statistician of Price Waterhouse Coopers LLC, who performed face-to-face interviews with sports-car hobbyists at one industry trade show. Although the survey establishes an association between the Cobra design and Shelby, that is insufficient to support a reasonable jury finding in Shelby's favor on the issue of secondary meaning. Rather, Shelby must prove that the primary significance of the Cobra shape in the minds of consumers is to identify Shelby as the single producer.....He cannot."
Score: Shelby 0, Defendants 1
Doug
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The Eleanor cars were built by a company in Texas with Shelby's blessing. Beside the Eleanors Unique Performance also built a 65 fastback mustang called the GT-350SR.
I heard that Unique's quality and business practices were so bad that Shel and Chip Foose withdrew from their partnership with them.
Unique is out of business. Maybe this is the last hiccup of this deal.
Mike
I heard that Unique's quality and business practices were so bad that Shel and Chip Foose withdrew from their partnership with them.
Unique is out of business. Maybe this is the last hiccup of this deal.
Mike
Can you envision old school gentlemen like Phil Hill, Paul Frere or Paul Newman suing others over replicating their automotive inspirations? I realize these gents were drivers first and design hobbyists a distant second, but they were cut from a much nicer and refined piece of cloth than CS. CS is about to depart this world and there he goes being a jerk - he will be remembered as an OK driver, an excellent designer and team manager, and a bit of a prick. Would you really want your legacy to include this?
Whoa - the old man ain't dead yet and I am sure that there is a method to this suing madness.
Mr. Shelby has achieved alot in his career. Without him the GT40 would be a minor footnote in the history of failed race cars and there would be no Cobra or Daytona for Factory Five to copy.
He protects his brand and trademarks vigorously because there are so many "Entrepreneurs" trying to bask in his glory. These are business decisions first and foremost no doubt brought on by the fact that if you do NOT sue the other party you abandon your legal rights to your own brand. Trademarks and Patents used to be pretty cut and dry but the current crop of shysters from lawschools around the nation chip away at what a normal person would think is a clear cut case of intellectual property. The case in point being the Ford/safir lawsuit. What really has the new safir to do with the GT40. Because they bought the trademark at auction? There should be no such situation. Ford paid for the GT40 program and it should be Fords forever.
It has become the in thing to badmouth Mr. Shelby but history will not remember the owners of any of the replica companies.
Everything in our little high performance world revolves around what he created and the company he led over the course of a few years from 1962-1967. I do not think that you could get there by not being a charismatic leader that inspires his workforce. That will be his legacy forever.
I wish him the best in all his future endeavors and hope to hear about him defending his achievements for the next 50 years.
Mike
Mr. Shelby has achieved alot in his career. Without him the GT40 would be a minor footnote in the history of failed race cars and there would be no Cobra or Daytona for Factory Five to copy.
He protects his brand and trademarks vigorously because there are so many "Entrepreneurs" trying to bask in his glory. These are business decisions first and foremost no doubt brought on by the fact that if you do NOT sue the other party you abandon your legal rights to your own brand. Trademarks and Patents used to be pretty cut and dry but the current crop of shysters from lawschools around the nation chip away at what a normal person would think is a clear cut case of intellectual property. The case in point being the Ford/safir lawsuit. What really has the new safir to do with the GT40. Because they bought the trademark at auction? There should be no such situation. Ford paid for the GT40 program and it should be Fords forever.
It has become the in thing to badmouth Mr. Shelby but history will not remember the owners of any of the replica companies.
Everything in our little high performance world revolves around what he created and the company he led over the course of a few years from 1962-1967. I do not think that you could get there by not being a charismatic leader that inspires his workforce. That will be his legacy forever.
I wish him the best in all his future endeavors and hope to hear about him defending his achievements for the next 50 years.
Mike
Mike,
i agree with some of your sentiments, but I don't think Shelby did this single handedly.
Your sort of missing the work done by H&M. Alan Mann, etc.
Ask any car person in Europe about a Cobra and they will know what it is, probably know of the original idea to slap a big engine in a lightweight car made by AC. Despite this idea, the cars are still badged 'AC', and not 'Shelby'.
He didn't make the cars, just had te idea and distribution rights in the USA.
Same goes for the Mustang, Ford made it, he modified it.
Why this is considered any different from john Cooper modifying the Mini I have no idea. Can you imagine JC trying to copyright the Mini shap ?!?
I can understand why its being done (to protect the Shelby name), but it still seems a bit OTT this long after the event to defend car shapes when they have been left unprotected for so long. If they had protected their designs throughout then I'd have no problem at all with their actions.
i agree with some of your sentiments, but I don't think Shelby did this single handedly.
Your sort of missing the work done by H&M. Alan Mann, etc.
Ask any car person in Europe about a Cobra and they will know what it is, probably know of the original idea to slap a big engine in a lightweight car made by AC. Despite this idea, the cars are still badged 'AC', and not 'Shelby'.
He didn't make the cars, just had te idea and distribution rights in the USA.
Same goes for the Mustang, Ford made it, he modified it.
Why this is considered any different from john Cooper modifying the Mini I have no idea. Can you imagine JC trying to copyright the Mini shap ?!?
I can understand why its being done (to protect the Shelby name), but it still seems a bit OTT this long after the event to defend car shapes when they have been left unprotected for so long. If they had protected their designs throughout then I'd have no problem at all with their actions.
AC designed the bodies. Shelby put in a motor (he wanted to use a Chevy motor, if I recall correctly). It is not as if he sat down with a napkin and said "I want to build a car like this" and now others are stealing his own intellectual design. Shelby was a great hotrodder, and great race team director. Business or not, I think it leaves a stain on his rightfully strong legacy to do these things. Sorry, but his replicas are no more "real" than the Factory Fives, or ERAs, or Kirkhams, or whatever. The only thing he has a right to be upset about would be someone building a replica and attempting to pass it off as an original (ie 1960's) car.
And I will remember Dave and Mark Smith of Factory Five for a long long time. Both great guys. I have never met Shelby. But I bet if I drove up in my FFR he would not be real pleased. So what I am supposed to do, destroy the car? Send him a check? Piss on that.
And I will remember Dave and Mark Smith of Factory Five for a long long time. Both great guys. I have never met Shelby. But I bet if I drove up in my FFR he would not be real pleased. So what I am supposed to do, destroy the car? Send him a check? Piss on that.
Ron Earp
Admin
I can understand why its being done (to protect the Shelby name), but it still seems a bit OTT this long after the event to defend car shapes when they have been left unprotected for so long. If they had protected their designs throughout then I'd have no problem at all with their actions.
And the defend shapes that, like mentioned in the previous post, he didn't design! I'm with you two, not feeling the love and don't think Shelby should receive money in this situation.
The genesis of the Cobra shape is this : Ferrari Barchetta > Tojeiro special > AC Ace > AC/Shelby 289 > 427. How much of the 427 design can be attributed to Shelby or AC has long been disputed . However the 289 shape/design was around long before Shelby came on the scene.
I don't see how ol' Shel could lay claim to the shape of the FFR Type '65 Coupe. That body shape is my interpretation of what a Cobra Coupe should look like. I'm the guy that sculptured out the body shape for FFR. FFR gave me a chassis and windshield and said "go for it!" It was a lot of fun working with FFR at that time! I did the best I could with what they gave me. Thye had not much input during the process. I guess it turned out OK, they have sold quite a few of them.
Guys - You can't sway me. I have always been on the other side of this argument.
To me it is very simple and clear cut: No Shelby - No Shelby image. The "shape" we are talking about is not a quaint tea sipping little british roadster but a fire breathing 427 SC. None of you guys build copies of an AC. You want that snarling snake. Be honest to yourselfs.
If Shelby American builds a Cobra it is not a replica but the 2008 edition of what their original '65 offering was. That is the benefit of being the man who invented and promoted the concept.
Eric Broadley, Alan Mann, H&M did not succeed on their own. Without Shel that Project would have fizzled out as unreliable. All 3 LeMans car were "run" by Shelby no matter what the names on them may say. Read Friedman's book. Again no Shelby no winner's image and eventually as the project would have been abandoned no gulf livery later on. Sorry.
Regarding FFR, their cars show up at every cobra day here in LA and are always welcome, BUT they are not allowed to park next to the real deal having their own section. To me it is like owning a real Rolex or a chinese one. Both tell the time and to a 12 year old they look nice and valuable. It is up to yourself to set your standards of ownership and most of us by economic neccessitiy have learned how to cope.
I myself have gotten only as far as a Kirkham with a Shelby FE block but I am still chopping away at it.
Regarding GT40s and Daytona coupes the numbers of real ones are so small that ownership of a replica is nearly a given. Again you have the choice between many levels of originality but in the end they are still not the real deal. Like Ron says in the original GT40 section "You know when you belong"
Why has this simple statement been muddied down in the cobra world?
Mike
To me it is very simple and clear cut: No Shelby - No Shelby image. The "shape" we are talking about is not a quaint tea sipping little british roadster but a fire breathing 427 SC. None of you guys build copies of an AC. You want that snarling snake. Be honest to yourselfs.
If Shelby American builds a Cobra it is not a replica but the 2008 edition of what their original '65 offering was. That is the benefit of being the man who invented and promoted the concept.
Eric Broadley, Alan Mann, H&M did not succeed on their own. Without Shel that Project would have fizzled out as unreliable. All 3 LeMans car were "run" by Shelby no matter what the names on them may say. Read Friedman's book. Again no Shelby no winner's image and eventually as the project would have been abandoned no gulf livery later on. Sorry.
Regarding FFR, their cars show up at every cobra day here in LA and are always welcome, BUT they are not allowed to park next to the real deal having their own section. To me it is like owning a real Rolex or a chinese one. Both tell the time and to a 12 year old they look nice and valuable. It is up to yourself to set your standards of ownership and most of us by economic neccessitiy have learned how to cope.
I myself have gotten only as far as a Kirkham with a Shelby FE block but I am still chopping away at it.
Regarding GT40s and Daytona coupes the numbers of real ones are so small that ownership of a replica is nearly a given. Again you have the choice between many levels of originality but in the end they are still not the real deal. Like Ron says in the original GT40 section "You know when you belong"
Why has this simple statement been muddied down in the cobra world?
Mike
Not for me, I saw my very first Cobra, a 289 street model, in a Ford dealership in Wichita, KS.
That's the vision that comes to mind for me........that lean little sports car with the high winding V-8, not the "bloated" (IMHO, guys, IMHO!!) looking 427 behemoth.
I see the issue for the Daytona as the same as for the Cobra, though--in order for Shel to prevail, he must be viewed as the sole source for this design exercise....a tough thing to prove considering how many companies have produced Daytona replicas since the 1960's without anyone attempting to intercede, most specifically Shelby, himself.
Doug
I too share the sentiment that the old man cannot win this one. Sad really.
The owners of all the replica companies should donate some money to Shel's children foundation as a gesture of honoring his spark of creation.
Mike
The owners of all the replica companies should donate some money to Shel's children foundation as a gesture of honoring his spark of creation.
Mike
Ron Earp
Admin
I agree with you now and I think many others are starting to do so as well. More and more 289 replicas being built and if I'm not mistaken the 289 powered cars were more successful on the race track. If I were shopping for a Cobra now it'd be one of the 289 track versions, love that look.
I suppose that is what he's trying to do, it is just he's trying to make it a compulsory donation.....
R
Mike,
Well the cobras wouldnt have been successful without the drivers that won with them. So the cars should be theirs since the fame is because of them.
Hot Rod mag put a new chev in a Pontiac Solstice. So according to your line of thought they should get the rights to the car.
Wasnt Shelby employeed and financed by Ford? So it is fords car. If not any engineer that designs a car whle working for Ford can claim ownership.
And personally I dont think either the Cobra nor the GT40 would be the icons they are were it not for the replica market. The replicas have given them the modern day exposure.
.02 Jim N
Well the cobras wouldnt have been successful without the drivers that won with them. So the cars should be theirs since the fame is because of them.
Hot Rod mag put a new chev in a Pontiac Solstice. So according to your line of thought they should get the rights to the car.
Wasnt Shelby employeed and financed by Ford? So it is fords car. If not any engineer that designs a car whle working for Ford can claim ownership.
And personally I dont think either the Cobra nor the GT40 would be the icons they are were it not for the replica market. The replicas have given them the modern day exposure.
.02 Jim N
I respectfully disagree with virtually all of your statements. My FFR is NOT a Chinese knock-off that I am trying to pass off as an original. First off, my father and I built it, and it and the experience are priceless to us - and near to worthless otherwise. If you want to use that analogy, then the continuation cars which you can buy turnkey with VINs as if they are "real" are what you are on about. And that is essentially what Shelby is doing! It is more like Rolex marketing Chinese knockoffs of their own watches.
Ours is a 427 body, 'cause that's what the FFR is. No choice. Would it matter? By most accounts, the 427 (which was designed for a different motor) drives like crap. Our small block 331 FFR handles brilliantly, with more weight on the rear axle than the front. Even if I had the money, I would not own an original 427 for anything other than a museum piece.
So it's OK to allow Coupe and GT40 replicas because there are fewer of them so most people assume they are fake? Let me tell you, no one assumes my Cobra is real. Shelby is plenty happy to build a replica himself - the increased number of cars doesn't bother him a bit. He is only upset that he is not getting money. Tough. He has had the incredible good fortune to live a wonderful life making a good living doing what most of us dream about. I think I hear little violins playing.
I am always floored by the attitude that you must separate the "real" from the fake. No, I don't support someone passing off a replica as an original, that's lying if you are at a show, and fraud if you are selling. But I cannot stand it when people look down their nose at people who have built and enjoy a replica. Or feel they are superior because of the car they happen to own. So you have a <insert expensive exotic of choice> Big f'n deal. I am more impressed by guys here who build their own cars from scratch. Now THAT is some sheet.
It doesn't get worse than in the Ferrari world. Yes, there are some people trying to pass off some interesting things as "real" exotic cars. Many don't have a lot of money. I have been blessed with a (currently) decent financial position. Am I supposed to think that I am now better than another guy who doesn't have the same resources? When I do, then I will have undone all the good things that my parents brought me up to believe in. These are all just CARS, and this is just a HOBBY, nothing more.
And Shelby did not change the world. At the end of the day, racing is still a branch of the entertainment industry.
Sorry for the rant, but it is Christmas Eve, and everyone on this board is extremely blessed, lurking, building, driving, whatever. If you look out at the world around, you will see how truly lucky we all are to have the time and money to be involved in this hobby, whether attending a show as a dreamer or driving home in the best-in-show concours winner. And we should all stick together!!!
Now I have to go wrap some more presents. Merry Christmas to all!
Shelby never had exclusive rights to the 427 as this chassis/body was sold by AC cars as the AC 289 and continued in production when Brain Angliss purchased the AC cars name along with varoious design rights. He and Shelby locked horns on this matter many years ago.
J.
I am sorry if I got you all wound up on christmas eve. The experience of assembling the FFR with your dad is I am sure as precious to you as working with my dad was to me.
I want to wish you personally and your family the kindest, warmest and most fun christmas ever and hope all your wishes come true in the new year.
Mike
I am sorry if I got you all wound up on christmas eve. The experience of assembling the FFR with your dad is I am sure as precious to you as working with my dad was to me.
I want to wish you personally and your family the kindest, warmest and most fun christmas ever and hope all your wishes come true in the new year.
Mike