What is the most historically accurate replica/kit currently being produced?

I've wanted a gt40 all my life but sadly i'm not as rich as i thought i'd be when i was a kid.

I've looked at the new Ford gt but to me it's been modified/modernized just too much... its overgrown, and got fat. (no offense but its just not the same)

I was hoping you gt40 fans on here could help me find the most historically accurate gt40 kit i can get.

i don't care for modern 'improvements' like more legroom, air conditioning.. i dont want a modern/re-engineered chassis, more power or any extras no matter how much 'better' they may be. I really want a carbon copy body, frame, geometry, down to the last bolt.

call me old fashion but to me its about the history more so than the modernization, parking lot performance numbers, and comfort.

i think that gives you a taste of my preferences and what i'm looking at, so please help me. Where and what companies should i start looking into?
 
Well, it depends on how much you want to spend, and how much work you want to
do yourself.

Firstly, for most accurate, you'll want a monocoque frame. Superformance is probably
the best combination of accuracy and price, but it only comes in turn key minus (though
most dealers will complete it for you if you wish). One advantage with a Superformance
is that it is an official continuation license form Safir, the current holders of the GT40
moniker. Be prepared to spend at least $80K without engine and transaxle.

However, Superformance is not the most accurate. The most accurate ones would
be GOX (if any are available) and Mirage in the UK. They will be significantly more
expensive, and may require you to do much of your own sourcing of parts and/or
fabrication. There might be others, but the prices will be just as steep.

Auto Futura/CAV is less accurate than Superformance, but comes in kit form so you can
get started for less. Also, CAV has official Gulf licenses, so while not official continuation
vehicles, they can be official Gulf replicas.

ERA falls somewhere in between CAV and Superformance, and also comes in kit form.
However, there is a waiting list because ERA doesn't build as many GT kits as CAV or
Superformance.

Beyond these, "accuracy" drops. You start getting into aluminum or stainless panelled
spaceframes (Tornado is supposed to be developing a mono), but Tornado, Southern GT,
Roaring Forties, and GT40 Australia/DRB incorporate "upgrades" to the design for both
comfort, safety, and performance. Then there is RCR. RCR uses an aluminum mono, but
is a completely new design under the body. RCR gives up accuracy for comfort,
performance, and safety just like the above.None of these are bad, you may want to
consider some upgrades over the original like modern brakes and more readily available
components.



Ian
 
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Russ Noble

GT40s Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Well, it depends on how much you want to spend, and how much work you want to
do yourself.

However, Superformance is not the most accurate. The most accurate ones would
be GOX (if any are available) and Mirage in the UK. They will be significantly more
expensive, and may require you to do much of your own sourcing of parts and/or
fabrication.
Ian

Old timer asked about the most accurate, so Dave Brown's Classic Car Developments offering has to be right up there for consideration. Price may not be too bad either when you look at the value of the NZ dollar. Best way to contact Dave is by phone I think. I don't think he gets near a computer very much!! Brian Stewart and John Shand both on this forum are currently building Dave Brown based cars. Check them out.
 
Not in any order of quality but from my personal internet observations of those that can claim a lot of originality.

Gelscoe....UK
Mirage....UK
Gox....Sweden
Classic Car Developments....NZ
Lee Holman.. USA. (MKII)
Safir... USA ( These guys hold the licence they are or have done work on the car being built by 'Jimbo' which originally started out from 'classic car developments' many years ago.)
There may be others that would contract to build you a car, but I think you will find that they will in most cases be using one or more of the above for component supplies. Some of the above are 'from recent discussions on this site' done in limited number runs & may not be immediately available in a commercial sense. Its almost a bit like joining an exclusive club... you gotta know how to do the secret handshake!! :):)

My apologies in advance to anyone I may have left out or feels left out. I took it from the original post that the requirement is for a car that even an original original would be very difficult to differ from.
 
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Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
My car's monocoque was built mostly by David Brown and finished by Adams-McCall in the UK. AM are the company that built the Safir tubs, if I am not mistaken.

I don't know how you measure accuracy. I will say this; Dave Brown states that he works from an original set of GT40 plans when building the tubs. This is correct, because when my tub was shipped to Safir and they tried to fit the suspension arms that were made to THEIR drawings (this is part of the stuff they bought from Peter Thorp when he sold them the company and all its' goods) they discovered my tub would not fit suspension arms (wishbones) made to Mark V spec. The Mark V cars incorporated the suspension mounting point updates that had been worked out by Alan Mann Racing. However my car has the old original mounting dimensions. A new set of wishbones and all associated pieces had to be made for my car to Mark I specs.

So at least in that respect, a David Brown tub is one of the most historically accurate ones available. The GOX folks seem to be hewing very close to original as well.

But, as someone who has spent TEN YEARS in an effort to recreate a 1965 race car from scratch (and who has made some compromises along the way to keep things moving and maybe even eventually DRIVE it) I will say this:

If you want to own and drive a dead-nuts original GT40 Mark I car, I hope you are:

1) young (you'll need the time)
2) rich (self-explanatory)
3) lucky (see #2)
4) patient
5) single. If you are married when you start the project, you won't be at the end.

Good luck. You'll need it. I would never attempt this again. What I hope is to complete it and drive it while I can still climb in and out of it. If you want to DRIVE a GT40 as opposed to BUILD a GT40, get an RCR, SPF or ERA car and enjoy it. Hardly anyone will know but you.
 

Rune

Supporter
Jim You said #The GOX folks seem to be hewing very close to original as well.#
I would say that if there are any diff. between the GOX and the original, there must be something wrong with the original. :))

Regards
Rune
 
1) young (you'll need the time)
2) rich (self-explanatory)
3) lucky (see #2)
4) patient
5) single. If you are married when you start the project, you won't be at the end.

i've got 4 out of 5 so i hope thats close enough. like i said i'm not as rich as i'd like to be, but who is.

the recurring most accurate/mentioned replicas seem to be in no particular order:
Brown NZ
Holman Moody (are they uk or usa?)
Mirage UK
and Gox (sweden)

and the close but not perfect category would include:
era usa
superformance usa


Of all these the only ones i seem to be able to research from my desk are Mirage, ERA, and superformance. I am unable to get any indication of price from mirage, i guess i'd have to call them. some of the ERA changes leave a bad taste in my mouth like narrowed rockers for legroom, its heavier and it has a plastic roof (those sound like inaccurate luxuries and... plastic). Can anyone provide a brief comparison of superformance? (superformance does not explain alot of what they changed) i'm assuming/hoping they changed less than ERA has.

I'm sure plenty of guys on this forum have been in my shoes when they were getting started.

In the mean time i'm going to dig a little further and try to find out more about Mirage, Holman, Gox, and this mysterious guy named Brown. (looking over their website mirage sounds the most promising so far in terms of originality, but i'm afraid to ask how much $$$)
 
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Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
some of the ERA changes leave a bad taste in my mouth like narrowed rockers for legroom, its heavier and it has a plastic roof (those sound like inaccurate luxuries and... plastic). Can anyone provide a brief comparison of superformance? (superformance does not explain alot of what they changed) i'm assuming/hoping they changed less than ERA has.

QUOTE]

Only Superformance and the specialist makers (GOX, Brown, Mirage, etc.) have a pressed steel roof as original.

The Superformance has made changes to allow a larger market share, most do not want the "full on 60's race car experience" so the Air Con, LHD option, etc. have been added. You will see quotes of 75-95% interchangability with a Sixties GT40. The percentage varies due to what you consider as "the same" and what will bolt on/work.

For example, the FAV/JWA uprights were magneisium...very light and very short half life on the street with rain or forbid, residual salt that is common here in the Northeast. So Superformance does the uprights in aluminum. Yes, they can bolt to a FAV car but are they the same? No, that is what generates the variance in "interchangability percentages".

Also practical changes such as an actual, legal emergency/parking brake. Here in New York State no original GT40 is really road legal as the "E-brake" system is not "seperate from the service brake system". SPF uses a drum park brake inside the rear rotor with a bolt on bracket to hold the cable operating mechanism, the original cars had a lever that caused a cable to pull the service brake pedal and lock all four calipers on. Simple, but not legal most places.

Unless you want to build a race car, you must accept some changes to allow a legal, useable GT40 for the street.
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Right, Rune, and I did not mean to shortchange your chassis. GOX and Mirage ought to have been on the list in my post, and I apologize. There may be others as well. From the photos I have seen, the GOX chassis is a thing of beauty and looks exactly original. The only problem with it is that it is too pretty to paint :), because it is made of galvanized steel and therefore looks shiny. Who would cover up such artwork?

I have not seen the Mirage chassis. I have no doubt that it is every bit as good. AFAIK, only the GOX, Mirage and CCD/DB chassis have steel roofs, unless there is someone else crazy enough to be doing this as well. My sympathy to them if there is such a person :)

Getting the chassis is only the first of MANY steps. The number of bits that have to be found and fitted together to duplicate an original GT40 is staggering. My Kirkham Cobra is a very good replica of a 1960s Shelby Cobra- good enough that Shelby sells them himself with his name on them. If you want, Kirkham Motor Sports can build you an absolute nut and bolt duplicate of an original 289 or 427 Cobra- I have seen them side by side with original cars and I cannot tell them apart. There is no equivalent in GT40s. The innumerable bits that make up a GT40, many of which were sourced from parts bins of the time for convenience and economy, are not available now as mass-produced pieces, so when you find them (if you find them) they are priced as if they are made of unobtainium. Which essentially they are.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE these cars and the sight of a GT40 still gets my heart rate up and all that. But if you are going to try to create a brand-new 1965 car from scratch, please at least have a very clear idea of what you are trying to do. They made enough Cobras that they sort of became standardized. GT40s were never like that and all the cars are individuals. I will love 1149 when it is done, warts and all. I just hope I am still limber enough to climb in and drive it.
 

Keith

Moderator
Right, Rune, and I did not mean to shortchange your chassis. GOX and Mirage ought to have been on the list in my post, and I apologize. There may be others as well. From the photos I have seen, the GOX chassis is a thing of beauty and looks exactly original. The only problem with it is that it is too pretty to paint :), because it is made of galvanized steel and therefore looks shiny. Who would cover up such artwork?

I have not seen the Mirage chassis. I have no doubt that it is every bit as good. AFAIK, only the GOX, Mirage and CCD/DB chassis have steel roofs, unless there is someone else crazy enough to be doing this as well. My sympathy to them if there is such a person :)

Getting the chassis is only the first of MANY steps. The number of bits that have to be found and fitted together to duplicate an original GT40 is staggering. My Kirkham Cobra is a very good replica of a 1960s Shelby Cobra- good enough that Shelby sells them himself with his name on them. If you want, Kirkham Motor Sports can build you an absolute nut and bolt duplicate of an original 289 or 427 Cobra- I have seen them side by side with original cars and I cannot tell them apart. There is no equivalent in GT40s. The innumerable bits that make up a GT40, many of which were sourced from parts bins of the time for convenience and economy, are not available now as mass-produced pieces, so when you find them (if you find them) they are priced as if they are made of unobtainium. Which essentially they are.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE these cars and the sight of a GT40 still gets my heart rate up and all that. But if you are going to try to create a brand-new 1965 car from scratch, please at least have a very clear idea of what you are trying to do. They made enough Cobras that they sort of became standardized. GT40s were never like that and all the cars are individuals. I will love 1149 when it is done, warts and all. I just hope I am still limber enough to climb in and drive it.

C'mon Jim, don't be so selfish... get it done mate :). Youre not the only one running out of time here....:drunk:

Send me air fare and I'll come over and tell you what you need to do.... :laugh:
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Too bloody right, Keith. There's no shortage of folks telling me what I need to do. Including getting a brain transplant for being foolish enough to start this in the first place.

The only problem is finding a donor brain small enough to fit into this shrunken head :) Come over anytime. It's your nickel, but I'll put you up and feed you while you sort the car out.
 

Pathfinder Motorsports

Sponsoring Vendor
Check Out the GT40/R

Only Superformance and the specialist makers (GOX, Brown, Mirage, etc.) have a pressed steel roof as original.

The Superformance has made changes to allow a larger market share, most do not want the "full on 60's race car experience" so the Air Con, LHD option, etc. have been added. You will see quotes of 75-95% interchangability with a Sixties GT40. The percentage varies due to what you consider as "the same" and what will bolt on/work.

For example, the FAV/JWA uprights were magneisium...very light and very short half life on the street with rain or forbid, residual salt that is common here in the Northeast. So Superformance does the uprights in aluminum. Yes, they can bolt to a FAV car but are they the same? No, that is what generates the variance in "interchangability percentages".

Also practical changes such as an actual, legal emergency/parking brake. Here in New York State no original GT40 is really road legal as the "E-brake" system is not "seperate from the service brake system". SPF uses a drum park brake inside the rear rotor with a bolt on bracket to hold the cable operating mechanism, the original cars had a lever that caused a cable to pull the service brake pedal and lock all four calipers on. Simple, but not legal most places.

Unless you want to build a race car, you must accept some changes to allow a legal, useable GT40 for the street.

Oldtimer:

Mark does a good job of describing the virtues of the standard Superformance GT40. But if you want original, you need to check out the not-so-well-known Superformance GT40/R.

The GT40/R is a near-exact copy of the racing GT40s, and is in fact intended for racing (it is approved by HSR and SVRA for historic racing and is the official promotional car for HSR). Unlike the standard SPF GT40, the GT40/R has authentic right-hand drive (left-hand drive optional) and right-hand sill rod gear shift w/ period correct hardware; no a/c; Gulf-car style round driving/fog/turn signal P/1075-type lamps (exclusive ‘R’ feature); built-in six-point rollcage; Gurney bubble; FIA-approved emergency power cut-off switches (interior & exterior); Shelby registry as a GT40 and Safir GT40 competition registry; exclusive race-model continuation VIN number: i.e., GT40P/2xxxR; even a race-grade wiper motor (works at speeds over 150mph). It also has a period correct and functional aerodynamics package, including front canard wings, hood wind diffusers, and a fully-adjustable rear spoiler. You can buy a roller, ready for your own engine and transmission, for about $79,500.

As an alternative, you can buy a ready-to-race, Olthoff Racing prepared GT40/R, for about $119,000. For this price you get a ZF 5-speed transmission by Quaife and a 302ci race engine built by Holman Moody, builders of original Le Mans GT40 racing cars and engines. This package also includes twin fuel cells (FIA FT3 Certified); fire suppression system (FE36 – FIA approved); six-point competition seatbelts (FIA approved); FIA tow eyes (front & rear); megaphone racing exhausts; authentic wood shift knob w/ GT40 emblem; quick-release race steering wheel (D-shape), black suede & GT40 emblem; race-grade brake pads & fluids; and race-grade sway bars.

The first of the GT40/Rs arrived only last month in time to be shown at the Road America GT40 Reunion (some photos below, including one with GT40 legend Brian Redman checking out the GT40/R). And later this month, Dennis Olthoff will be competing the BP Racing GT40P/2090R at the Vintage Racecar Weekend at Watkins Glen.

While there are other reproduction GT40s that are a percentage or two more exact than the GT40/R, the price differential is a disproportionate 200-500% more. For example, a Holman Moody-built GT40 will set you back well over $500,000. So if you want something very original, with an original chassis number, and is licensed by Safir to be called a GT40 continuation model, take a look at the GT40/R.

Alan
 

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Steve C

Steve
GT40s Supporter
Oldtimer,

Take a look at the Superformance forum here and see "Upgrades , options and mods to P2125" for what can be done to a Superformance.

If you want to send me a PM or give me your # and we can discuss what I know as a Superformance hands on owner.

Steve P2125
 
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