RCR vs. SPF vs. CAV

[TJ Fowler]

Hi all. I am new to the site and have a question that may have been asked before--but I couldnt find a thread that included the RCR cars (I did read the SPF v. CAV thread and it was a great wealth of knowledge).

I want to purchase a GT40 "replica" in the future and joined this site to learn all I could before I took the plunge. I came in set on a SPF car--mainly because it was the only high quality American GT40 builder I knew of. (I knew a little about CAV, but didnt realize they were so readily available stateside). As I have been studying this site, I now see that there are other quality options that merit consideration.

I would love to hear everyone's opinions on each type of replica, so that I can weigh the options with an informed opinion. I understand that many of you will be biased towards your own car, and that doesnt bother me--just let me know which brand you own so I can see where your opinion is coming from.

Im open to any and all opinions on any and all topics which are GT40 related - design, fit/finish, price, customer service, longevity of customer support, parts availability, authenticity... Im ready to soak up the combined knowledge of this forum.

Maybe if I explain what I want from a GT40, it will help direct the advice given:

I want this to be the last sports car I ever buy (ok, maybe not the last, but this car has been my childhood dream and I plan to keep it for the rest of my life). Gulf colors/regalia are a must. It will mainly see street duty with maybe one or two track days a year--nothing competitive, just lapping days or GT40 meets. I am meticulous about my cars, dwell on details, and celebrate cleanliness in all aspects. Consequently, overall fit and finish is important to me. Since I plan to keep.use the car, reliability, usability, and longevity are also important. I plan to power the car with a small block using modern electronic injection (I hate tuning carbs). I have no knowledge regarding transmission options in these cars, and am open to advice.

Thanks in advance!!!

 

[Jimmy P]

TJ, Be prepared for an avalanche of info. Few on this forum will tell you which way to buy but many already have preferences. I myself own a CAV and couldn't be happier. I bought it after hours and hours of research and settled on the fact it had a SS chassis and a solid reputation both from a standpoint of build quality and service from the factory. Also, I recently had the car with the CAV US factory rep (Johann) in Raleigh, NC and he treated me like a King. Johann has never failed to pick up the phone and answer any question's I have no matter what time I call. I assume you want to buy a new 40 and not someone elses car. With this in mind I will say the three you mentioned are all quality products. Two others you might consider are Tornado who state they have sold more GT40's then any other (they're out of England but I believe they also now have a US factory rep) and ERA (in CT) a company also known to produce a quality product but they are also known to be $$ and can take a long while before you get your car. You mentioned the SPF v CAV thread and thats a great place to start. CAV and SPF are South African companys and both are represented in the US with a number of "dealers." RCR are out of Michigan and Fran has a great reputation on this forum for building whatever you want and its a quality product too. As for pricing...well, the sky is the limit. A lot of your overall final price will come from the choice of engine and transmission. The ZF trans is regarded by many to be the box of choice but its pricey. RBT is also a great trans. I have an Audi box which is relatively inexpensive but readily available and less expensive to replace or rebuild. You should first determine HP rating and go from there when deciding on the trans. As for your engine choice make sure you do your homework. Many will advise to buy from a local shop who have a great reputation for building a great product and who have been around a while. So, if there are problems during the build or after you can meet with them personally. Of course the big builders (Rousch, Ford Racing, Holman Moody etc) will give your car panache and might up your selling price should you ever go to sell. You said you'd be doing mostly street driving so the ZF might be a bit over the top for you. MY CAV is comfortable (very) keeping in mind what the car is. It's not a Ford GT. Its a GT40. Its loud, low, close fitting, demanding to drive, can be warm in the summer even with AC, requires close attention, because everyone wants a piece of you whether you are in it or not, but I wouldn't have it any other way simply because of how I feel when I'm in it at speed. Glorious! Any of the those mentioned by you are going to be quality (and you really can't go wrong with any of them) but there are others (the Australian market) who will stand by their cars and for good reasons. In the end the choice will be yours. I recommend you look at each one up close and personal, drive each one if you are able and really think about what kind of HP you want and then decide on the trans. This will help in pricing and in determining specific needs. I'll close by saying I bought CAV because being close to original was not what I wanted. IMHO none of the above are "real" GT40's with racing history and proper credentials to demand a HUGE number at auction. So I chose the CAV because I loved the SS chassis and and the overall fit and finish of the car I saw. I probably could have spent more time in researching the engine in my car. Remember the engine and trans you choose are an individual choice and will require you to make a completely separate decision. Good Luck and I hope this helps.

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

The SPF is not built in the states, it is manufactured in South Africa as is the CAV.

All are great choices and all are different offering various qualities and drawbacks. I do not have first hand experience with an RCR but have seen them and they are impressive. The CAV is a very nice car and Johann is a great guy and will take very good care of you in all matters.

That said, I am an SPF dealer and I do have a Gulf MK I on the ground (see the SPF forum for pictures). The one factor that sets the SPF apart is the original type tub and that it IS legally a "GT40" and not a "GT40 replica".

However whatever GT you decide on you will be buying a lifetime of smiles!

 

[TJ Fowler]

Thanks for the feed back, keep it coming. Of course, each post will likely illicit more questions from me (apologies for my ignorance in these matters).

Do the RCR/CAV cars benefit significantly from straying from the more original SPF approach? I like the originality factor of the SPF; that said, I might be willing to trade some originality if it asses a significant benefit in design (ie. better suspension geometry, more solid, more rigid, safer, better fit/finish, etc...).

It seems like the major difference in the RCR/CAV/SPF is the basic mono construction philosophy. RCR appears to use aluminum, while CAV uses stainless, while SPF uses galvanized steel. Is this correct? Are the subframes of each car made of the same materials as the monocoques?

As for transmissions, I dont see myself building a n/a ford small block that makes more than 450hp. Would an Audi box be sufficient? If I decided to go with an Audi box, would it work with any of the manufacturer's chassis's above? What are the differences in the ZF/RBT and the Audi transaxles?

 

[René]

what also is important(besides the rest) the interior and the seats...
I've seen many picture's (also looking for almost the same reasons)
the later CAV's have what I think the best interior by looks/feel good, very nice also in the middle were the shifter is, more round/classic...also see the interiors from the other brands...but hey, most are beauty's, though some have just that plus.

 

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Thanks for the feed back, keep it coming. Of course, each post will likely illicit more questions from me (apologies for my ignorance in these matters).

Do the RCR/CAV cars benefit significantly from straying from the more original SPF approach? I like the originality factor of the SPF; that said, I might be willing to trade some originality if it asses a significant benefit in design (ie. better suspension geometry, more solid, more rigid, safer, better fit/finish, etc...).

It seems like the major difference in the RCR/CAV/SPF is the basic mono construction philosophy. RCR appears to use aluminum, while CAV uses stainless, while SPF uses galvanized steel. Is this correct? Are the subframes of each car made of the same materials as the monocoques?

As for transmissions, I dont see myself building a n/a ford small block that makes more than 450hp. Would an Audi box be sufficient? If I decided to go with an Audi box, would it work with any of the manufacturer's chassis's above? What are the differences in the ZF/RBT and the Audi transaxles?

The SPF is set up for the ZF/RBT/ZFQ other boxes would require fabrication and linkage work.

All have good suspension...the SPF suspension (i.e. GT original DID win some obscure race called "the 24 Ours of Lemans" three time over there!

 

[Al Jones]

T J - you've opened Pandora's box here. Deciding on a brand is kind of like being in a 'gentlemens' club and fantasizing about whether you'd like to take the blonde, the redhead or the brunette home! There are other factors you need to consider: spaceframe or monocoque as well as the mild steel, stainless, aluminum or even honeycomb or carbon fiber chassis; degree of adherence to originality; water intrusion resistance; flexibilty of acceptance of various drivetrains;availability of kit as a roller/semi-complete; proximity to the manufacturer or rep(if you have a problem,do you want to deal with someone 1/2 way around the world?); degree to which the components can be customized to suit you; interior room, headroom and legroom and seat comfort; intended usage and (the BIG one) - your budget!
For originality,(e.g.,Gelscoe), be prepared to open your wallet. And don't forget the Porsche series of transaxles,whether it be the G50 series(5 spd) or the 930(4 spd). Choices are,but not limited to:
Gelscoe,Southern GT, Roaring Forties, Bailey Edwards, Tornado, CAV, Superformance, ERA(US built) and RCR(US built). Others such as Holman-Moody are still around and have parts but may or may not offer you a kit. Bon appetit! A.J.

 

[Pat]

I would suggest that you make the search as fun as possible by checking with any '40 owners that are geographically available and look at their cars, offer to buy beer in exchange for a ride and test for yourself what looks right and feels right for you. That way you've gotten some direct, insight met a new friend and somebody got a beer out of it
Like many others, I enjoy my CAV as a personal preference but that may or may not be best for you. No matter what you get, that will be the brand that will become the basis for fanatic loyalty from that moment forward. As my wife says, "no happy parent ever has an ugly baby"...

 

[Bill Cooke]

TJF,
Another thing to think about is right or left hand drive.Most cars built here in the states are left drive,not correct for a 40. I have lots of seat time in right drive cars here and there is really no problem on the street.One exception are toll boths,thats why we have fast pass.My Tornado will be right drive. I like the more orginal look.
Bill

 

[Mark]

Does anyone know what the advantages or disadvantages would be between the stainless steal and aluminum chassis?

 

[Jack Houpe]

I like Al's description of your question. Tough question TJ, you trying to start a debate?

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I think these are all very well made cars. I would also add that the ERA car is quite well made as well.

What you REALLY ought to do is drive one of each. THAT is going to help you a lot in making your decision. You may have to travel, but what the hell, spring is coming up and what better excuse for a road trip than driving a group of GT40s.

I wish all these cars had been available ten or eleven years ago when I started all this..

 

[TJ Fowler]

I like Al's description of your question. Tough question TJ, you trying to start a debate?

No... not yet at least

Speaking of which, if you do have a potentially inflamatory opinion that you would rather not share in public, feel free to PM me. I want to know the good the bad and the ugly for all of my GT40 options.

Im just trying to figure out exactly what I want. It seems like there are pros and cons to all the major players. Keep the info coming guys. It is all really helpful to me.

 

[Chuck]

You might consider studying the build blogs on this forum to get an idea of what goes into those cars that are built by the owners, if you are thinking of going that route. You will probably get a more objective answer to your question that eliciting general opinions. The owner of each brand will likley say his is the best. I know I would. And I am completely objective. :smug:

 

[Jim]

I am currently in the final stages of my build on a ERA GT40. It is a fantastic car. Extreamly well built with no comprimises.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Building any car from the ground up- even something that comes with all the bits and instructions- is a great deal of work. You would probably get just as much pleasure from buying a car in roller form and fitting the engine and transaxle yourself, plus getting it painted (if need be) and then sorting out. Even a very-well-done roller will require a surprising amount of work to complete and sort out and it will definitely feel like 'yours' when you are done- you won't just be the man that wrote the check.Two years on with my Cobra, we are still fettling it and sorting out small details. Meanwhile, I've had the pleasure of driving it.

I think any of the reputable builders (all the ones mentioned here are such, and there are others) will sell you a solid car that you can complete to be something you like a great deal. I would also urge you to have as much fun as you possibly can in the information-gathering process. Like travel around a lot and drive a lot of GT40s...it's a rough job, but someone has to do it.

 

[Tim Kay]

+1 what Jimbo said ^

I bought mine complete track ready and couldn't help but tinker on it myself (my matto: 'if it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is) which in short order turned into a complete frame off rebuild with things I still want to add. These cars are never done, never, never, never!

Something else I believe Jimbo has mentioned in the not to distant past, your age is very relative to what stage of build you start with...If he didn't, he should've!!

 

[Jimmy P]

Tim, beautifully said!! So true.

 

[Jim Craik]

TJF,

I see you have the same disease as the rest of us, and there is only one cure!

That said, I understand your quandary.

I had the same questions about two years ago and after much investigation I went with the SPF mk1. As I wanted the closest thing to an original that was readaly available.

From you original post I noted that you "dwell on details", as do I.

When I talked to the CAV people they kept refering to the CAV's larger interior, As I wanted a gt40, I would hope that my car had a gt40 interior. Additionally, the CAVS I have seen have several body areas thet are different from the originals. The roof line has a definate hump at the firewall for better headroom, the rear seems to slope down much more than the originals with the spoiler several inches low and there is a body crease going from the top/back of the door windows to the top of the cold air scoop which is not on the originals.

From what I can tell the RCR body appears very similar to the originals anthough the tub and suspention layout is slightly different.

Other things I noted that helped me to deside was the very close tub design, the very close body design (with only a few minor exceptions), the very close suspension design, the steel roof as in the original cars, being able to call it a gt40 and the very nice fit and finish.

As I was going to drive mine 99% on the street I went with the set up of the original street cars with a SBf (Roush 302 based motor), a ZF trans (RBT) and a Holly 4brl.

I have had mine for just over one year, have just over 9,000 miles and am in love!!!!

 

I was interested to read the comment 'Gulf colors are a must'. I assume folks here are aware that the blue-orange scheme has been granted full trademark protection in Europe, no words or logo, just the paint scheme. A rare thing to copyright but they did it and anyone planning to paint their GT40 blue 'n orange will need approval from Gulf.