Current State of GT40 Market

All,

It has been a while since I have seen a thread about the current market prices. One of the old threads put out a few hypothesis that the increase in mono availability (CAV, Hi-Tech, RCR) along with a greater availability of rollers could depress the used market. If we combine that hypothesis with the lingering economic issues, one would think the market values have been depressed although they could be increasing in the recent months.

Truthfully I really have no idea but I do have some data points, interested to hear your thoughts.

- A CAV had been for sale on eBay in the 80K range for a period of time, not sure if it sold or not
- Superformance MK1 (early car) was for sale for 78K here on forum back in Feb
- ERAs sold in the past two years between 68K and 79K (I think this is right, I saw it on this forum)
- GTD for sale currently at 59K on forum
- ERA for sale today at 105K on cobra country

The Superformance, CAV, and ERAs had a ZF trans with a mix of engine choices but most looked more than acceptable

So, I guess questions are:
- Where do you think prices are? My feelings are that built mono cars are actually being sold around 75k to 85K today. Do you think that is off?
- Are ERAs still worth a premium over other replicas?
- Does a Roush engine command a premium over than other brands?
- What other factors might come into play?
- New fully built Superformance with Roush 427 for sale right at 100K


I recognize that a car is worth what a person is willing to pay for it but in a small market like the GT40 is, it is still interesting to get a perspective.

Thanks
Kevin
 
While I tend to look at things from a more cynical point of view IMHO I feel that there is plenty of room to the down side for these things (as seen by the recent price drops). Parts are parts and the price for those are already set so there isn't much wiggle room there where I think people start to lose touch with reality is when they factor in the value of their time. In a time when you have top notch mechanics working for peanuts (mine runs me $25 hr. and that's before negotiations) people are trying to charge big money for the work that they have done and that's just not realistic. I understand Fran (and even he is reasonable with his asking price for a turn key) asking what he does as he is the manufacturer and knows how the car is to be built but everyone else needs to get a grip on reality.

A car that sells for around 50K in kit form and than over 100K complete (used) is just silly. I don't care what you have in the thing motor / trans wise at most you would be looking at 100K for a brand spanking NEW CAR complete so how one charges that used boggles my mind. Again the price of parts are what they are it's peoples misconception as to what their time is valued at that is the problem (Frans time deserves a premium but john doe not so much). I have a feeling that EGO plays more of a role in the pricing of these cars than reality. I for one would look for the guy who is on the balls of his A!! before entering into negotiations for the sale of such a car because he has no ego and is looking to get what the car is really worth not what his emotions tell him its worth.

I am looking at the SLC which I will build once my current project is FINISHED (e30 318 to e30 M3 complete conversion with body conversion and s14 motor / drive train) and I put the matching ring on my fiancées hand next May (plan to by the slc for my B-Day present to myself). I have already started to acquire parts (motor etc) and i can say that i have no clue where you guys are getting your parts because I am not paying anywhere near what some of you are posting but than again I am using every connection and sponsor I have to keep costs at a minimum.

When I start my build I am going to start a thread showing you guys how I saved $ and where I got all of the parts. Remember guys a corp. only costs but so much and that will get you an instant 15% off from most vendors so again with little things like this there are even more savings to be had to those that think outside the box.

Disclaimer: I am speaking of my personal experience in the BMW world (working on my second build) but the theory still holds true as I have already started to find out from the small dealings that I have been a part of thus far.
 
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Damian, I'm right with you on sourcing the few bits necessary to complete an SL-C.
Other than engine (freshened LS) with MY camshaft choice, etc. and a really good
buy on the gearbox, I have spent little in comparison with some others. Patience and preserverence to find things at the right price really pay off! Yes, it has cost me some build time but that's okay.
 

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
In a time when you have top notch mechanics working for peanuts (mine runs me $25 hr. and that's before negotiations) ...

---A car that sells for around 50K in kit form and than over 100K complete (used) is just silly....

1. The last time *I* saw top notch mechanics charging $25/hr was probably in the 70s. Right now where I live the rate is way over $100. (We're talking shop rate, not pay stubs, right? And we're talking about someone you would trust with your GT40, right?) IAE it's not clear to me how that's relevant to the topic. Mechanic's rates don't set car prices, buyers do.

2. No, a car that does that is just an event but probably also a good day for the seller. What it says about "the market" as small as this one (GT40 replicas) is essentially nothing.

IAE my research before I dove in myself says prices are at least $10K lower than what Kevin arrived at. It's hard to get actual sale data but asking prices that just sit for a long time do establish a ceiling.
 
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Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
- Does a Roush engine command a premium over than other brands?

This isn't a comment about "the market" but more about my own thinking: when I first started looking I thought Roush was the way to go. But I almost immediately noticed a far out-of-proportion number of problem reports from Roush owners. Then when I compared prices while carefully accounting for what came with the engines from different vendors (eg ign. box, bell housing, clutch, etc.) I concluded that the several thousand-dollar Roush tax was for vapor and that I wasn't going to pay it. Will I be sorry at resale time? Maybe. Or maybe that day never comes.
 
My guy is an ex-Chevy mech. and is certified. The rate around here is close to $100 per hr. and believe me when I tell you that there are a ton of open bay's around these parts. It actually has become the norm to see mobile mechanics doing work at a clients residences. As far as trust goes I wouldn't let anyone near any of my cars if I didn't trust in their abilities which leaves the question how well do you trust the unknown guy that you are buying this used car from? 100K is a lot of money to spend with someone that you meet once. What are their credentials etc? Listen I am not saying that you all are throwing money away just most of you. As Molleur said patience will pay off when building / purchasing these things.

Case in point I am having a new hood, windshield, complete revamp of the ac (new condenser / dryer / fan), new radio and speakers installed and the wing & hood painted all for a grand total of just under $300 in labor (on my daily). Now could I do all the work myself; YES but for that much why bother as I know my time working will result in more than I spend so I will swallow this one happily. The best part is that it will all be done in my garage so I can monitor the work (mechanic has worked on all of my cars and friends cars as well). The paint work may not be concourse quality but for what I need done it will do just fine. Now that is a deal by any means. Keep looking guys as the deals are out there you just have to look beyond your garage.

Now as far as a floor being set by those cars sitting for a long time all I have to say is WHAT!!!!! The floor is constantly moved south as people are starting to realize that the value THEY placed on these cars (done to their liking) is not what someone else (reality) has set for it thus the steady move lower on prices. Now I am not saying that there is no value to these cars but nowhere near 100K used unless there is some history behind the vehicle and that is just fact (as the current market dictates). Look at it like this ... If you were going to buy a house with a current market value of $100,000 but has a mortgage of $1,000,000 would you pay the million that the previous owner payed or what the current real price is. The owner feels that it is worth every bit of 1,000,000 because HE BUILT IT HIMSELF but the market says differently so which do you feel is the right price for the house. Unless you are a fool YOU would only pay $100,000 right? Why is it acceptable to take a loss when selling a car that has more real world value (ability to be used everyday) but not when selling a toy (and make no mistake about it as that's all these things are)? A bit hypocritical wouldn't ya say?
 
As I post this I don't want everyone jumping on here crying about how "special" their car is or how I don't get the market ... I Do it's you guys that refuse to face the reality of the current market place. While it may be a precious item to you and worth every penny spent (TO YOU) it most def. is not to someone else.

Remember that when buying anything people will inherently look for the best deal for a car that fits their needs. When moving into the specialty market even more so. I have a feeling that the reason that those cars for sale sit for so long is two fold: 1-The seller is just testing the market and trows about a price for sh!@s and giggles to see if anyone bites but has NO REAL INTENTION or want of selling and 2- The seller is delusional and honestly feels that he has something special and would rather bite his nose to spite his face.

The housing market comes to mind for a perfect example. How many times have we all seen a seller asking an outlandish price (remember example #1 from earlier) for his house (what he honestly feels it's worth) only to have reality SMACK HIM IN THE FACE when he doesn't sell and has to lower the price continually until he hits a price that is more realistic with the current market place. I could go on and on but at the end of the day I have absolutely no skin in the game and before I get the rest of you all upset about the value of your beloved 40's I will bow out now and leave you all to reflect on what I wrote. :thumbsup:
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
This one is always a fun one.

Add up the cost (lowest possible) of all the parts in the car plus the current cost of the "kit". If you haven't gone really crazy with a paint job add in about 1/2 of what you spent. Then if it is currently licensed and registered add a few thousand depending on what state. California and the other big states will bring more money than North Dakota for example.

Your time or anybody else's is of no value unless it is a specific job like a roll cage. Discount professional labor of this type by about 1/2. Your hobby time is of no value to anybody else.

This will get you to about $50-$70K. Any more and it better be VERY special and you will need to find a guy who really wants your car and has a lot of spending money.

I believe however that you have asked the wrong question. This should be considered a hobby. You decide what you what to do with whatever money you have. Buy as much as you can to get started and then spend a little at a time over several years building the car, getting to know a whole bunch of new friends, learning a lot of cool things, and in the end drive a really cool car you built yourself.

If at some future point (lets say more than 5 years later) you need to sell it, you can pretty much recoup most of you hard cost and have had a lot of fun in the mean time.
 
Down under in Oz, we can only dream about second hand, registered, cars for say $60,000. The cost of parts alone, plus professional painting, trimming, wiring, is $100,000 here, without adding the Engineer's certification and registration costs.
In the web site Carpoint.com.au there are currently six GT40's for sale, 5 of them road registered. Prices range from $250,000 (hopeful) to two at $165,000 (very well built and equipped) to about $80,000 (reasonable basic cars, could use some improvement).

However, I agree with the concept that the owner/builder tends to place a higher value on his car than the market will. And with such individual cars, it is highly unlikely that any buyer will find a car and not need to hold in reserve some additional money to change some of the characteristics to suit his own preferences and use.
 
It's pretty simple from an economic standpoint...and doesn't involve egos or misconceptions or anything like that...the niche "market" for a GT40 replica is dependent upon the supply of acceptable cars v. the demand for such cars. Ego has nothing to do with it - the car will sell at exactly the price point the two parties agree on value, and not a minute before, or for any different price. That's the market.

What someone wants to "ask" for their car isn't the market. That's just an offer.

It's interesting to note that the market for GT40 replicas is a subset of the larger market for exotic automobiles....and the GT40 subset may not move in the same direction, nor to the same degree, as the larger exotics market. I believe this to be the case. Why? Because I see that the market for say a ferrari as a much more volative market...in part because the economics for a ferrari purchase depend heavily upon the ability to both buy the car AND pay for very, very expensive future maintenance. In a down market, a car that requires a large furture investment in parts and labor costs (ferrari parts costs and mechanics cost) is going to be more volative than one that doesn't (a GT40 replica with more DIY/NAPA parts cost profile). For example, OEM caps, rotors and plug wires for an old 308 ferrari will run about $1,500. For a GT40 that's more like $100, in other words a 15X delta. That's a big difference, and the market is no dummy, it recognizes and ascribes a value to that.

So, net, I would think there's been some very modest drop in prices overall for GT40s since the boom days of 2006 but I don't think that it's really that dramatic as a matter of degree. However, in contrast, I would say that prices overall for a three year old ferrari have dropped dramatically.

That said, very few exotics, including a nice GT40 replica, are not going to lose you some money in the end. That's just the way it is when you add up the total cost of ownership. So, better to focus on what gives you the most enjoyment, live within your means, and let the economics take care of themselves

Just my $.02.
 
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who cares....buy or build the one you want for the price you want. I may have paid more than I can get for it, but I don't give a shit. It still puts a smile on my face every time I light the fire. Not much else does any more. That is priceless. If you care about money and cost, then buy a Toyota or something more rational.
 
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SpyderMike that was the type of response I was talking about. No one asked about how you feel about your car or anyone else (and I asked for people not to get like that) for that matter. This is a car forum and we are all nuts about cars in our own way I thought that was a given. What was asked was an economic question not an emotional one.
 
D-

It's a public forum, you get what you get. Sorry you don't like my post. I guess I don't see the purpose in yours. Are you buying, selling, fishing or fantisizing?

From my experience, the purchase or sale of a GT40 is an emotional thing. You can not strip emotion from the equation to build your metric. You want Gulf LHD MK1? You want Essex Wire scheme? You want LeMans 66 winner? To each their own and to each commands a different level of emotional commitment tied directly to$.

So, what is a SPF or CAV worth? Who is buying and who is selling, and what is their motivation?

By the way, unless you are Kevin L, this wasn't your thread was it?
 
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It's pretty simple from an economic standpoint... the car will sell at exactly the price point the two parties agree on value, and not a minute before, or for any different price. That's the market.

Cliff, I agree, my question is where is that intersection today and what are the factors that are impacting them...
 
D-

It's a public forum, you get what you get. Sorry you don't like my post. I guess I don't see the purpose in yours. Are you buying, selling, fishing or fantisizing?

From my experience, the purchase or sale of a GT40 is an emotional thing. You can not strip emotion from the equation to build your metric. You want Gulf LHD MK1? You want Essex Wire scheme? You want LeMans 66 winner? To each their own and to each commands a different level of emotional commitment tied directly to$.

So, what is a SPF or CAV worth? Who is buying and who is selling, and what is their motivation?

By the way, unless you are Kevin L, this wasn't your thread was it?

Well unfortunately I have never been able to let my emotions drive my wallet, at least not completely.

I am looking for other perspectives on where the market is today. Any idea to comparisons that might provide a range?
 
This one is always a fun one.

Add up the cost (lowest possible) of all the parts in the car plus the current cost of the "kit". If you haven't gone really crazy with a paint job add in about 1/2 of what you spent. Then if it is currently licensed and registered add a few thousand depending on what state. California and the other big states will bring more money than North Dakota for example.

Your time or anybody else's is of no value unless it is a specific job like a roll cage. Discount professional labor of this type by about 1/2. Your hobby time is of no value to anybody else.

This will get you to about $50-$70K. Any more and it better be VERY special and you will need to find a guy who really wants your car and has a lot of spending money.

I believe however that you have asked the wrong question. This should be considered a hobby. You decide what you what to do with whatever money you have. Buy as much as you can to get started and then spend a little at a time over several years building the car, getting to know a whole bunch of new friends, learning a lot of cool things, and in the end drive a really cool car you built yourself.

If at some future point (lets say more than 5 years later) you need to sell it, you can pretty much recoup most of you hard cost and have had a lot of fun in the mean time.

Thanks Howard, your 50-70 idea is pretty interesting and where my head is at. Although many sellers do not seem to share my sentiment which is why I am trying to figure out if I have under priced the market.
 
IAE my research before I dove in myself says prices are at least $10K lower than what Kevin arrived at. It's hard to get actual sale data but asking prices that just sit for a long time do establish a ceiling.

Thanks Alan, I agree. Tough to get a true sense of where prices really are.
 

Keith

Moderator
Thanks Alan, I agree. Tough to get a true sense of where prices really are.

The answer is: 'Whatever you can get'

The market has only very recently gone from self built cars (enthusiasts who don't count the hours or the pennies) to turnkey cars where the item has a perceived intrinsic 'value'. But that 'value' has yet to be established in an arena that still views 'replicas' with a hint of suspicion.

The tactic of naming them 'continuation cars' hasn't really worked either as they are not made by FAV or have much of a provenance however well built they are.

I think it will be a while yet before the 'market' fully accepts turnkeys as having 'value'.

Of course it would be nice to think you could get your money back with a self built replica too, but I think that's also a pipedream.

Whatever you can get.
 
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