GT40's vs Ultima

Over a few beers the other night (I know - not always the best occasion for serious discussion!) my friend and I were discussing the fact that the Ultima here in the UK has gained such a reputation as a 'giant killer' among supercars (just check their website for what they did at the Top Gear test track!).

Anyway, this may be a dangerous question..........but does anyone feel that their particular GT40 replica would compare in terms of handling and performance? Personally I don't see any reason why not, but it seems strange that none seem to have gained the reputation of the Ultima for sheer performance? Perhaps Ultima have just been better at marketing????? Or is it that they have a far superior product/package?

I don't know the answer to this (I know my GT would not compare from what I have seen of the Ultima stats), but it was an interesting debate as he is an Ultima fan and I'm obviously from the other camp!

I look forward to your thoughts.......
 
A lot depends on the component parts of a GT40 build. I would venture to say most GT40 owners like their cars because of a combination of history and performance. Some supercar owners feel they have to have the fastest vehicle on the planet. The Ultima GTR has the advantages of modern suspension, less weight, and wider wheels than most GT40's. With comparable shocks, springs, and brakes a GT40 replica could be close to an Ultima GT, but really who cares? In supercar pissing matches look at the Hennesey Venom GT. Basically a Lotus Exige with 1200hp! I'm happy with my SPF MKII and 505 piddly hp.
 

Julian

Lifetime Supporter
Dave,

I think you hit the 'nail on the head', they both evoke quite different emotions IMO and each can be built 'mild or wild' depending on your taste and intended use. That said I think comparable builds (HP, gearing etc.), both setup for track and running modern size rubber they could be relatively well matched. IMO that speaks volumes for the GT40 design that is 45+ yrs old.

I'd be more inclined to compare the Ultima to the SLC; Fran builds both GT40 replicas and the SLC, so there's a market for both, likely one where there is significant crossover simply beacuse at the end of the day we are all gearheads.
 
In case you didn't notice his signature block, Julian is in a rather unique position as he actually owns both a GT40 replica and an Ultima! :thumbsup:
 
The Ultima that broke all records on the TG track, is not really indicative of most Ultima cars out there. It is very highly spec'd.

As already said, if a GT40 was spec'd similarly to that car, then performance ought to be similar.

The Ultima uses a steel-framed chassis that has it's roots in the old Noble kit cars and apart from switching to round tube from square in some areas, there has been little (if any) development to that design as built by Lee Noble in the eighties, that I have been able to distinguish.

Also, people tend to talk about GT40 replica's as being a 40+ year old design. As I see it, most replica's were designed in the 80's/90's and only the shape of the body is 40+ years old in truth. Obviously SPF etc using very similar chassis designs to the original cars are an exception to this.

Therefore, stack up the HP, fit trick suspension components and wide sticky rubber with a trans to take it, and only the basic shape of the cars is different. The Ultima chassis is not all that different in layout from the majority of GT40's. Aerodynamically the 40 suffers perhaps, but how much would that be noticed in the real world and below 120mph?
 
Now there's a lucky guy......one of each!

For me, I admire the Ultima for the fact that it seems to have given the 'component car' market a good deal more mainstream credibility, as opposed to being seen as 'Fred in a shed' as it is in some quarters. As a product it is pretty impressive in being so well engineered that you can build that level of performance easily at home (or at least that's what their sales blurb says!) I guess in some ways this is appealing having just finished a scratchbuilt GT after (too) many years!

However, I'm a regular at UK kit car show at Stoneleigh every year and although they are great for what they do and always well turned out, the Ultimas (for me) are always over shadowed by the shape and variety of the GT40s that turn up. And I guess that is why I won't change my GT for an Ultima.......my only compromise would be to have both (if only....)!

I'd love a shot in one though to see how it feels.
 

Mike Pass

Supporter
I like both and one of each would be really good fun. I recently gave an Ultima owner a spin in my GTD40 and he thought that it was good in comparison to his car. His opinion was that on the fairly bumpy road that we were on his Ultima would be a bit of a handful and at the speed we were doing (legal of course!) he might be going through the hedge even on the straight bits.
In terms of straight line performance it is all down to grunt/weight ratio. Ultimas generally run more hp than 40s but the 40s are catching up lately but still usually well short of the 720hp cars that they are now producing. On a track the Ultima with bigger wheels, tyres, brakes, more grunt etc. would in most cases be quicker. Bob Light's Ultima usually blew everything away every time I saw it run.
In terms of looks there is no comparison in my view. The Ultima looks like a smacked arse in comparison to a GT40. I often wonder why Ted Marlow or someone hasn't done a new body for the Ultima. Hmmmmm.
Cheers
Mike
 
I know, I often wonder the same thing.....it really needs some styling to bring it up to date. When you look at some of the newer cars being produced (Veyron, Ascari, McLaren MP4-12, Hennessey Venom etc) then you get the feeling they could do so much more.....

I've often been tempted to start measuring and see what body could fit onto that chassis.......with a little modification of course......

I guess it just demonstrates the appeal of the GT40 shape. It still looks fantastic after all this time, and the Ultima (in my view) looks very dated by comparison.
 
Mark, I agree with your statements and those of others posting here. Many of us probably could have purchased an Ultima but didn't. Speaking for myself a car needs to evoke something inside me....you know, that look over your shoulder for one last glance before closing the garage door type thing. The GT40 still gives me that and thats saying something for a car designed 4 decades ago. Plus its just an iconic car with all the performance I want. (mines about 440 HP) The Ultima is a fine car but lacks that certain something IMHO. But recalling the question...I think a GT40 could be set up to compete against the Ultima. Time and money gents, time and money.
 
Hmmm Well I own neither type of those cars but have seen my share in the flesh.

When it comes to a 'correrct' suspension geometry, I would say that every conceivable configuration angle has been tried with the unequal length wishbone setup throughout the world no matter what car. It is therefore conceiveable that most GT40s have the same or similar geometric setups as any Ultima or other such car around. The next thing comes down to weight and power. If you put the biggest engine in the lightest car no matter what it is, you will have outstanding straightline performance. A good friend of mine has a 454 chevy in a Morris Minor and in a straight line ...... well you know what I mean.

If you have to set owners of the Ultima and GT40s aside, I think you will find the 40 people more technical and 'at one' with the car instead of a 'bolt em up this weekend and she'll go' type. I was reading in one Ultima car thread about gearboxes. They were all saying the ZF-2 type is no good for their car or their V8 engines as the ratios are all wrong and they should stick with their Porsche boxes (Im looking for the biggest laughing face emoticon right about now). Whereas on this site, owners will discuss ratios, final drives, the whys of axle tramp etc etc but you get the picture. As Mike said above the Ultima looks like a smacked arse and its about time they updated its look.

Give me 40 anytime.
 
As Mike said above the Ultima looks like a smacked arse and its about time they updated its look.

Really we could treat the worlds fastest car with a bit more respect.
Cars are like women I guess and what one man thinks is a great Gal the other thinks she looks like a smacked arse.

Go to Ultima and get their GTR, then get anyone of the Kit builders factory built cars (not customer cars) and run them round a race track.....simple answer is the Ultima will flog the GT40 replica's, it will out run ,out corner and out stop the 40. The only people laughing sadly will be the Ultima Guys.

If you have to set owners of the Ultima and GT40s aside, I think you will find the 40 people more technical and 'at one' with the car instead of a 'bolt em up this weekend and she'll go' type.

This is rubbish, 90 percent of the GT40 kit suppliers are mostly bolt togethor, with some drilling and riveting. I guess you have not looked into building an Ultima. I base the two types in the same catergory when it comes to building and engineering. Don't bag a kit because it is well sorted and goes togethor well.

When you add it all up, the 40's on this site are all Tupperware cars. One lid fits all. The Ultima is the same basic set up and with a bit of messing around you could probably fit a Gt40 body or an SLC body or a GTM body.


Why not start an Ultima sub forum?
 
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Fran Hall RCR

GT40s Sponsor
Dave,

as I have three of the mentioned cars in my shop right now...GT40,SL-C and GTM( now sold..thankfully)...all side by side.....you could not be more wrong....none of them are even close to being drop on or have anywhere close to the same engineering involved.
I know my personal stock LS7 SL-C bettered the best time a twin turbo Ultima ever did at the Run and Gun a couple of years ago..and now the owner of that very same TT Ultima has an SL-C on order...and the SL-C times were with one of your Aussies at the wheel that has never shifted gears with his right hand or driven anti-clockwise round a racetrack...

But what do I know, I am a Tupperware manufacturer...
 
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You're right, you are and if you choose to take it that way then to bad for you. Take the analogy for what it is.

My point was the car lay outs are basically the same and with a cut here and there they would , like you said a GT40 windscreen drops into a GTM Boom boom. Would it not make sense then that the rest of the 40 body could be made to fit?

Fran go get the Ultima that Ultima used to set the record and line up the best you can build, put your money where your mouth is..Do it with factory on factory car....not a Customer of mine beat a customer of theirs with a TT this and stock that and some Tossa that never shifted a stick with his right hand. That's bullshit bench racing talk.

You build a nice car I'm not doubting that. I'm not bagging RCR or any other GT40 builder.

But sadly the only offical race comparison you got is against a GTM that was backyard built and you didn't make the start.
 

Fran Hall RCR

GT40s Sponsor
Dave..

the SL-C race car was not assembled by us...it was manufactured by us ...the electonics issues that the car suffered were no bodies fault but Motecs....their "sealed" PDM module is not quite as sealed as they advertise..no excuses required

Lap times are lap times..the SL-C bested the TT Ultima times around the St. Louis track, and thats fact.

My factory built spec racer is coming along nicely and it will be available for all to see in 2011...as its going to be running a full season of NASA events

I do put my money where my mouth is everyday...because I actually manufacture my own products...and develop them with my own dollars...

I welcome the opportunity to run against the Ultima...but we can use your dollars as they are worth much more now with the exchange rate being what it is...which is actually good news for RCR Australia...
(three more RCR40's leaving next week and two last...)

The GTM is a much much bigger car that the GT40 so you could drop a VBM body or a Ford GT on its chassis but not a normal sized GT40...

Being the WA DRB dealer/agent as described on the DRB website you already know this though.... http://www.drbsportscars.com/Contact.html

I am pretty sure that none of us "manufacturers..RCR,CAV,ERA,Southern GT, Tornado...etc.." see ourselves as tupperware makers ..but we all build a car that looks like a GT40 and its by far the most evocative sportscar of all time....the Ultima is not, that alone is worth its weight in gold to the cognoscenti
 
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Andy Sheldon

Tornado Sports Cars
GT40s Sponsor
The bottom line is that a GT40 is a replica and the Ultima is not.

A replicas main selling attraction is that ..........well its a replica.

A non replica car such as the ultima must be sold on its performance and thats exactly what they have done.

If a GT40 replica manufacturer were to fit a 720 BHP engine etc I am sure the performance would be exactly the same.

Andy
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
What Ultima and GT40 owners have in common is enjoying high-performance cars. But that's pretty much where it stops. GT40 owners admire something done in the past and want to own it because of that- at least I do- and folks who buy modern HP cars like the Ultima or the SLC etc are (I think) more interested in performance and less in nostalgia. At least that's the way I see it. Now, the guy who has both.... he's a member of the Lucky Sperm Club and no two ways about it...

I'm inclined to think that a lightweight car like the SLC or the Ultima would beat a GT40 on a tight road course- for race cars, GT40s are heavy and heavy cars don't change direction as well as light ones do. And they might be faster on a course with longer straights and easier bends, because they have top speed as well. I am unlikely to drive my GT40 as fast as it will go (not right off, at any rate) and I am one of those who is content with only 350-400 hp. If speed was the only thing I cared about, I would have a different car.

And, FWIW, if I had my choice of any supercar, bar none, it would be a McLaren F1. Couldn't resist it. Well, maybe a 288GTO... but I still think I'd want an F1.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Any use of the words better, faster, records, or anything else you would describe performance with, mean absolutely nothing whatsoever. All three of these cars are kits. I hate that word. That means that the buyer decides what level of performance he/she wants.

I am sure than given three budget amounts, $100K, $200K, and $300K I could let you pick which car they were spent on and without a doubt the 100k car would be slower than the 200k car with the 300k car being the fastest in any race on on any racetrack you could come up with. ......period.

Hell If you let me spend the 300K on my old GTD it would be faster then any 200K "you pick it".

Now if you ask me what I like, then I LOVE (sort of a fetish) GT40s and I really like SLC's. I think the SLC will end up faster.........
 
Fran go get your SLC and break the 0-100-0 world record.
Then get back to me. But to be true to the thread go get
one of your GT40 replica's and break it with that.
 
People build GT40s because they like the form, the feel, and the nostalgia. To make a GT40 as fast as an Ultima, a builder would have to do a lot of aero work in addition to spending money. Then it would be debatable whether it's still a GT40 or not, it certainly wouldn't look the same.

There's no point to making this speed comparison. By this criteria, for the same $, you could buy a car that would destroy the GT40, the Ultima, whatever, on the track - it's called a Radical SR8.
 
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