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Old 4th October 2011, 08:39 PM   #1 (permalink)
molsson
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Zf transaxle question

I am new to the site and do not have any experience with GT40s or Panteras. I'm trying to find out how to price a ZF transaxle from a 1974 Pantera with approximately 13,000 miles on it. It has been stored in its original crate in a climate controlled storage bay. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 4th October 2011, 09:04 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

Well, I can be only of limited help, but here's what I know;

A new RBT is about $12K, thats for a new ZF in the GT40 orientation. For whatever reason, the boxes in the Pantera orientation seem be run a bit less. I know I've seen rebuilt units here for $7.5K. Used ones may go for half that. The general range for usable units in the Pantera orientation probably is $7.5K plus or minus....mostly minus these days.

That said, I don't claim to really have my finger on the pulse of the market, but I suspect I'm in the ball-park.
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Old 4th October 2011, 11:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

It depends on condition. Which you can only find out about by opening it up, I would think. And it would have to be re-oriented to work in a GT40, which several shops can do, but it isn't free. It's also a good time to overhaul it if it needs it.
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Old 4th October 2011, 11:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

Thanks very much for the info.
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Old 4th October 2011, 11:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

Would this website be the place to sell it?
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Old 5th October 2011, 12:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

I bought two complete ZF tarnsaxles (Pantera) from a parts manager at a Mecury dealer in Seattle in 1977 as I worked next door at Ford. They were both replaced due to bearing noise mostly in low gear. There was a Mercury service bulletin about the issue that customers were complaining about. The fix was to replace the complete unit. It was not cost effective to send them back to Germany then, so they were held for the warranty claim to be paid, then scrapped/destroyed. I saw the parts kid toatting them out behind the shop and asked what's up? He said he was told to make them none usable with a sledge hammer! I stopped him and grabbed the parts manager by the gonads. $600.00 later the were both in my trunk. The moral is, be careful of an original Pantera transaxle for this reason. It still may need to be gone through even with very low miles. These two units had less than 6,000 miles on them.
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Old 5th October 2011, 08:13 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Roy View Post
I bought two complete ZF tarnsaxles (Pantera) from a parts manager at a Mecury dealer in Seattle in 1977 as I worked next door at Ford. They were both replaced due to bearing noise mostly in low gear. There was a Mercury service bulletin about the issue that customers were complaining about. The fix was to replace the complete unit. It was not cost effective to send them back to Germany then, so they were held for the warranty claim to be paid, then scrapped/destroyed. I saw the parts kid toatting them out behind the shop and asked what's up? He said he was told to make them none usable with a sledge hammer! I stopped him and grabbed the parts manager by the gonads. $600.00 later the were both in my trunk. The moral is, be careful of an original Pantera transaxle for this reason. It still may need to be gone through even with very low miles. These two units had less than 6,000 miles on them.
The early Panteras used the Dash-1 variant of the ZF gearbox. Some of them were a bit noisy, although there was nothing really wrong with them. Ford panicked and issued a dealer bulletin where they authorized the retrofitting of the new Dash-2 version for any customer who had complaints.

While there may have been a few duff gearboxes, unscrupulous dealers began changing EVERY early gearbox out, because Ford supplied all the parts for free, and paid the dealer for eight hours of labor (or something like that) to perform the work. So a customer would come in for an oil change, and the service writer would say, "Hey, how would you like a brand new and improved gearbox for free?" Who would say no to an offer like that?

So hundreds of perfectly good Pantera gearboxes were removed and cast aside; the vast majority were simply scrapped!

As for the 'what is my gearbox worth' question--as others have said, it's difficult to say with any certainty. If it was known to be in perfect condition it would be worth $5000 or so; if it had been rebuilt and documented to be as-new, it would be worth more. The problem is that you can never know what condition the gearbox is in unless you take it apart--and even then, people like you and me can't really tell with the naked eye.

One always has to wonder why the gearbox was removed in the first place--was it worn out, or broken somehow?

Your best bet is probably to put it on E-bay. There seems to be no end of people willing to take a shot in the dark and pay $5000-plus for a gearbox with unknown history...some get lucky, some probably don't.
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Old 5th October 2011, 08:28 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

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Originally Posted by molsson View Post
. It has been stored in its original crate
If the transaxle came out of a Pantera, wouldn't the "original crate" be the Pantera???
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Old 7th October 2011, 05:18 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

Well, what I meant to say was that it was put into the "original crate" that the new transaxle shipped in. The person that bought the Pantera (second owner)in 1976 installed many new parts including the transaxle.

Thanks for all the good information. I have been talking to someone that owns a company that rebuilds these units. He has offered to pay me $3000 "as is" for it since it's hard to know exactly what work needs to be done. I guess I can try Ebay first and see if I can get a better offer. I also have had people tell me that the right price is about $5000.
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Old 7th October 2011, 05:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Re: Zf transaxle question

Thanks guys. Being female, I really appreciate your expertise and sharing your knowledge on the subject. Especially Mike Drew.
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Old 7th October 2011, 08:40 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

Yeah, don't sell it too cheap. It's not like they are making any more original units. You might also email Ron McCall on this forum (Pantera 1889) He knows as much about these as anyone here on this forum and has overhauled several- very experienced.
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Old 7th October 2011, 09:45 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

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Originally Posted by molsson View Post
Thanks guys. Being female, I really appreciate your expertise and sharing your knowledge on the subject. Especially Mike Drew.
Aw, shucks! It weren't nuthin!

Do you know the actual specifics of the gearbox you have for sale, i.e. is it a Dash-1 or Dash-2? There is an identification plate, normally riveted to the shifter box on the left rear side, that will have the relevant information. Here is a photo of the tag on my Pantera gearbox, which is a 5DS-25-2 (i.e. Dash-2):



The Dash-2 gearboxes are generally considered to be more robust; there is also a greater parts availability for them, and they are less expensive to rebuild. This makes them more valuable.
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Old 8th October 2011, 01:39 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

Thanks Mike....I'm heading down to my storage bay on 10/8 to have a look. Good thing I loaded it in the front of the bay. I'll take a photo of the plate if I can manage to move it around. I have some photos that were taken a few months ago but none of them show a tag with info... By the way, is Dash 2 the same as Type 2? If not, what is the difference between Dash 1 and Dash 2? (Probably a dumb question).
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Old 8th October 2011, 10:06 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

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Originally Posted by molsson View Post
Thanks Mike....I'm heading down to my storage bay on 10/8 to have a look. Good thing I loaded it in the front of the bay. I'll take a photo of the plate if I can manage to move it around. I have some photos that were taken a few months ago but none of them show a tag with info... By the way, is Dash 2 the same as Type 2? If not, what is the difference between Dash 1 and Dash 2? (Probably a dumb question).
Certainly not a dumb question!

In 1965, Ford contracted with ZF (a German company) to design a five-speed transaxle for the GT40 after they ate their original Italian Colotti gearboxes like popcorn. That was the original 5DS-25.

They then re-engineered that race-only gearbox and improved it, and civilized it somewhat; that was the 5DS-25-1. That, in turn, was improved yet again which then became the -2. People will also refer to it as a Type 2, although that term is not widely used.

Ironically, the gearbox was changed substantially one more time, for use in the BMW M1 of the 1980s, but they failed to properly call it a -3. So there are two distinct types of -2 gearboxes; the early ones (Pantera, like yours), and the later ones (M1, and also current production made by RBT). Externally they appear the same; internally they have very little parts interchangability.

Dumb on their part to not just give it a new identity....
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Old 8th October 2011, 06:20 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

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Originally Posted by Mike Drew View Post
Aw, shucks! It weren't nuthin!

Do you know the actual specifics of the gearbox you have for sale, i.e. is it a Dash-1 or Dash-2? There is an identification plate, normally riveted to the shifter box on the left rear side, that will have the relevant information. Here is a photo of the tag on my Pantera gearbox, which is a 5DS-25-2 (i.e. Dash-2):



The Dash-2 gearboxes are generally considered to be more robust; there is also a greater parts availability for them, and they are less expensive to rebuild. This makes them more valuable.
Boy, your id plate looks brandy new. Mine - not so clean. After getting most of the grease removed I was able to write the numbers on a piece of paper. (I forgot my camera). The first set of numbers read 1031 002 001. The second set reads 008118 and the last set is 5DS-25 and I can't read the the dash 1 or dash 2 number because there appears to be a deep cut/scratch in the plate right over where the number would be located.

I have been told by several people that because the transaxle was installed in a 1974 Pantera that it would be a dash 2.

Anyway, I don't know what it all means. Could it be a problem when it comes to selling it? I guess I can give it a whirl on ebay before I commit to selling it for $3000.

By the way, thanks again for knowing all this stuff and for sharing what you know.
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Old 8th October 2011, 11:36 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

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Originally Posted by molsson View Post
Boy, your id plate looks brandy new. Mine - not so clean. After getting most of the grease removed I was able to write the numbers on a piece of paper. (I forgot my camera). The first set of numbers read 1031 002 001. The second set reads 008118 and the last set is 5DS-25 and I can't read the the dash 1 or dash 2 number because there appears to be a deep cut/scratch in the plate right over where the number would be located.

I have been told by several people that because the transaxle was installed in a 1974 Pantera that it would be a dash 2.

Anyway, I don't know what it all means. Could it be a problem when it comes to selling it? I guess I can give it a whirl on ebay before I commit to selling it for $3000.

By the way, thanks again for knowing all this stuff and for sharing what you know.
Your part number is the same as mine; they are both later Dash-2 Pantera gearboxes.

You're in a good position--you have a standing offer for $3K, so you have nothing to lose by trying your luck with E-bay. Do yourself a favor and clean it thoroughly first--use engine cleaner (available at any auto parts store) and scrub it so it looks like new. My photo above was taken while I was doing just that to my totally filthy gearbox, when I pulled it during the course of an engine change.

Once it's completely clean (there are lots of nooks and crannies that will respond to attention with degreaser, rags, old toothbrushes etc.), spray it completely with WD40 and wipe it down. The axle flanges and tail piece are normally painted black; if yours are rusty, hit them with a wire brush, mask the aluminum and then zap 'em with some black spray paint. It will look like new!

Be as forthcoming as possible in your description, and I have no doubt you'll easily surpass the $3000 mark. So make sure your reserve is at least $3000.

Good luck!
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Old 9th October 2011, 02:01 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

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Originally Posted by Mike Drew View Post
Your part number is the same as mine; they are both later Dash-2 Pantera gearboxes.

You're in a good position--you have a standing offer for $3K, so you have nothing to lose by trying your luck with E-bay. Do yourself a favor and clean it thoroughly first--use engine cleaner (available at any auto parts store) and scrub it so it looks like new. My photo above was taken while I was doing just that to my totally filthy gearbox, when I pulled it during the course of an engine change.

Once it's completely clean (there are lots of nooks and crannies that will respond to attention with degreaser, rags, old toothbrushes etc.), spray it completely with WD40 and wipe it down. The axle flanges and tail piece are normally painted black; if yours are rusty, hit them with a wire brush, mask the aluminum and then zap 'em with some black spray paint. It will look like new!

Be as forthcoming as possible in your description, and I have no doubt you'll easily surpass the $3000 mark. So make sure your reserve is at least $3000.

Good luck!
MIKE......THANK YOU FOR ALL THE GREAT TIPS! Looks like I have a new project to work on!
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Old 10th November 2011, 07:47 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Zf transaxle question

try DeTomaso Pantera Cars and Parts

a pantera place.

my never installed 6 speed audi
is FOR SALE FOR $ 6500.00 OBO WITH ADPTERS AND EVERYTHING
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