DIFFERENCES BETWEEN 351 WINSOR and CLEVELAND

[chip]

The Cleveland seems to be less money to buy but have heard Winsor is better torque/over all peformance Facts/opinions.

Who says Cleveland is cheaper?
With all the aftermarket goodies available
for the Windsor I challenge that statement.

Unless you WANT a large/heavy small block,
stick with the Windsor.

MikeD

[John Schneider]

No way is it cheaper. Having owned one I will tell you it's a great engine but is bigger all the way around. Parts are hardly ever "off the shelf" and they do come with a high price tag. I'm sticking with the small block.

[John Lind]

The Cleveland has a 90 degree angle between the two banks of cylinders, the Windsor has a smaller angle. This makes the Windsor engine slightly narrower.

The Cleveland has larger ports in the head which makes for better top end gas flow at the expense of some low RPM drivability. The Cleveland 4V heads have even larger ports (some say too large). The Cleveland heads are physically larger which also adds to the size of the engine.

To my knowledge, Ford never made an EFI Cleveland. This is not a problem if you want to use carbs. EFI parts (particularly the inlet manifold) can be found, but you will have fewer options.

Good Luck

John

Chip,
Sent you several e-mails and have not had a reply.

[Ian K]

From what I've read (and I have a great book
about the history and rebuilding of Ford
engines), the Cleveland is a better design.
However, as others have mentioned, size and
availability of aftermarket parts is a huge
minus. On the plus side, it breathes better
than a windsor (especially the 351W) and
is often referred to as the Ford Hemi.

But, with today's parts and technologies, a
306 can perform just about as well for a lot
less than a 351C. You may lose a little torque,
but that's about it.

Kinsler makes throttle bodies that, with
spacers, can be used with 351C and Boss
heads. They are two seperate halves instead
of 1 manifold.

Ian

[keithw]

Chip,

We went with the 351C only because it was already built for another car(Cobra) which the GT40 reolaced. We were told no problem fitting it into the Sabre chassis etc...etc.... Do yourself a favor, go with the 351W. I do believe we will be happy when done and I Absolutely cannot wait to hear the sound.

Keith

[Dave Wharran]

Just finishing up a Cleveland for in my car. Using 2V heads. All the parts are out there. Sometimes you have to dig a little though. This picture is about 6-8 months old.


This one is a month or so old after I installed the new RBT cover on the ZF.

[chip]

My reference to cost is based on a "built" motor by Southern Automotive: $4900 for the Cleveland rated at 425 hp vs $5900 for their Winsor motor. Check out their website.Good people. Chip

[ChrisL]

Dave,

That blue colouring on the inlets and box looks impressive. I've noticed it around quite a lot recently. What sort of coating is it? Is it a type of powder coating? If so, can your ordinary corner powdercoter do the job?

[Dave Wharran]

The blue is a translucent powder. You're supposed to either put it over polished metal or chrome, or a powder called "almost chrome". You can actually see through the color to the shiney metal under it. Thats what gives it depth...like candy paint.
I purchased a powdercoating kit from Eastwood. It is reasonably priced and does a good job. You can see it and all the colors available at www.eastwoodco.com.
The blue is called anodize blue. I've noticed that it is a bit fragile when tighting nuts or bolts againt it...even when using a flat washer. I guess its because the surface it's on is so smooth (no tooth) because of being already coated with powder or polished.

[imsa]

I've had both Windsors and Clevelands and I wouldn't even consider using a Windsor anymore. The Cleveland's an excellent hi-pro motor Ford originally developed for the Trans-Am series. Lots of torque, strong in the upper RPM range, and plenty of affordable parts around. Pretty much a bullet proof motor if built right.

Check out this web site http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/119419

IMSA

[GT40 MKII]

the issue with a cleveland is what type of head do you use. the cleveland has the most varity, you have open and closed heads and 2v and 4v heads. the closed heads give the best cr's when used with flat tops. closed chambered head come in 2v and 4v port sizes, the 2v's are from austrailia only and cost @ $350 us. use these for best street torque. the clsoed 4v heads are 1970 and 71, as well as boss 302 heads. you can run 11:1 cr with these heads.
open chambered heads are all us 2v's, and 1972-1974 4v heads. you will have to run a lower cr to keep the pinging down, about 9:1 is max.

the port size is @ 2in intake for 2v heads, and @ 3in for 4v heads. i know i am rounding up. the big complaint is the 351 doesnt flow enogh air at low rpms to make the 4v heads work well, but after 4k rpm, they really come in.

i would say go with the cleveland,cause thats what i raced when i was younger in the early 80's. if you really want to know more, you can email me.

All I can say is check out Muscle Mustangs or
5.0 magazine. 99% of all adds for engine parts are for Windsor. Goto any Ford swap meet and see what the prices are for Cleveland aftermarket stuff!

Unless you already own Cleveland parts, stick with Windsor. You won't be sorry.
NOT to say Cleveland stuff doesn't work...
it's matter of easiest/cheapest path.
(at least in the US).

MikeD