350 Chevy

MWGT40

Supporter
I would appreciate the forums thoughts on the following, possibly controversial topic!

I currently have the Ford 302 SVO engine in my GTD40 and I about to embark on a modification programme to increase the power, initially up to around the 400 BHP level. I have looked at a number of ways to achieve this including Edelbrock Performer or Victor Junior packages, using a steel crank, and/or stroking out to 351.

It occurs to me that not only is this very expensive, but also that if I want to go beyond 400BHP after that, I am back to square one - as the standard block is only good for 400 BHP.

I am therefore looking at a more radical solution which is to replace the 302 with a 350 Chevrolet engine. Naturally, I would put Cobra heads on and make other cosmetic changes where necessary to make it look as much as possible like a Ford block (although car enthusiasts would still probably be able to tell)

I figure that going this route might be better value(the parts seem to be cheaper and better than Ford) and offer a great deal of flexibility for future development (the Ultima uses a Chevrolet V8 and they put out 600 BHP no problem). The flexibility for future upgrade is important as roadgoing cars (and not just supercars) are now regularly coming out with 300-400 BHP (although they are also much heavier typically).

Modifications will of course be required in respect of exhausts, engine mountings etc and I am currently looking at the cost of this.

I am interested if members think this is a good idea, if anybody has done this before, likely effect on resale value (IF I ever were to sell), potential pitfalls etc

Thanks, Martin
 
Martin,

Makes alot of sense, & wouldn't be the first GT40 with a Chevy. This would also give you the option of using the G50 'box, with tried and tested parts as used by Ultima.

As for dressing the Chevy to look like a Ford, not much point really, as the dizzy is on the other end of the Engine!
 
Martin, you're worrying yourself about nothing! The Ford small block is more than capable of sustaining over 500hp. There are hundreds of Mustang owners at www.corral.net making more power than this with a factory block, using carbs/injection/nitrous/superchargers and turbochargers - or all of the above!. Go past 500hp at the wheels on a dynojet chassis dyno and you'll start to shorten the life expectancy of your motor...

A GENUINE 600hp motor will cost a huge amount of money, whether you choose Chev or Ford. For a fraction of the price of a GENUINE 600hp motor, you could rebuild your motor and see some really impressive power gains. An Edelbrock cam/heads/manifold package combined with an Eagle 347 stroker rotating assembly would make all the power you'd ever really need. If this is still not enough, then you're my kind of guy!!!
grin.gif
Then we can talk about 4 bolt blocks and turbos
shocked.gif


Nothing against Chevies, but if your Ford motor is already in place you'd be mad to change it.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hi Martin

Having many race-prepared Ford engines fall apart whilst racing I put a Chev in my GTD40 coupled to a G50-50 box and it was bullt-proof thereafter. Higher revving, a lot more torque and hp - and a lot cheaper (like more than a third less at the time). I have been told that Ford engines have now caught up in a cheaper range of aftermarket parts which weren't available when I did it but more folks who race are now changing to Chev as in addition to the reliable power they safely give an extra 1,000 rpm over the Ford and more flexibilty and opportunity in building up to about 600hp reliably as experienced in our race series.

I sincerely don't want to get into a Ford v GM thing over this as may be perceived, I'm purely responding with my personal experience and those of two others racing Fords and Chevs hard in GT40s.

Resale is a thorny issue as a prespective buyer may want something close to the original car - and that's the trade-off. You can only go with your instinct on that one.

Email me at [email protected] with your number if you want to chat.

Kind regards, Bob.

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Bob Sparks ]
 
Martin,

GT 40 Australia, who also build Ultimas,
has an adapter for Ford SB to G50, if that's
the gearbox you want to use.
With regards to the engine, you get what
you pay for. Reliable, high horsepower,
small block Fords are available from many engine builders these days.
You should speak to someone with experience
like Gordon Levy, before you make a decision. His engines are not too expensive and can be built to suit your needs.
Although I did not opt for one of his engines, as I only wanted 450HP, I did
learn of his reputation and abilities during
the research phase of my build. Very
impressive!

Bill
 
Martin,

Does the word BLASPHEMY come to mind? I wish I had a Corvette to put a FORD V-8 into. I'd take it to all the Corvette get-togethers; and there would boast of the Ford's engine capabilities.

I agree with 750 HP.

John
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
I think the power available from an engine is related more to cubic inches and volumetric efficiency than to who built it. I don't think Chevies are inherently any better or worse than Fords, although there is a greater range of aftermarket parts for Chevies. And you can't put Ford heads on a Chevy block. Period. Why would you want to?
Personally, I think there are so many good speed bits available for Fords, and builders who really love Ford motors and want to do something a little out of the ordinary, that if you look carefully you'll find what you want. And recall, if you will, that small block Chevy engined cars raced against Fords "back then" and didn't generally go the distance- although they didn't have the kind of factory support Ford did.
Some food for thought, at any rate.
 
As long as my Cobra and GT40 are fiberglass kits,
I feel that I can put in it what ever I want
without offending the real thing. My Cobra
has a Chevy motor in it. It's a Hot Rod not
a Shelby CSX. I refer to it as a Cobra because that's what people see. I tell people
it's my version of how it should be.
I think Blastphemy would be an owner
of an original CSX or an orginal GT40 putting
in a Chevy engine. I don't think there is
anyone out there that stupid.
If I had a kit car vette and I wanted a Ford
big block in it, that's what I would do and
I wouldn't feel like I was desicrating the real thing.
That's the beauty of building these kits.
You can do it your way. So Martin, if you're
so inclined to put in a Chevy then have at it my friend. I do agree that ford engines
have come a long way the last 10yrs. If
your car is already set up for a ford it would
seem like a waste of money to change now.
The last gt40 I rode in had a 300HP 302 Ford
and it impressed the heck out of me. It was
more power than I thought was needed for that
size car.
Oh yeah, resale value...Who cares ! I didn't
build the car for resale, I built it for
enjoyment and that's the way it's been for
13yrs now with my Cobra hot rod. I have
built eight street rods and a couple muscle
cars. None of them equal the fun I have with
these cars. The people I meet here and at
various events are probably the reason I
have stayed with this side of the hobby
for so long.
One last thing...I think it is great that some guys try their damndist to build a replica as close as they can to the original. But I also admire the guy who
does his own thing.

Hersh
smile.gif
 
GT 40 with a Ford engine = Replica.
GT 40 with a Chevy engine = Just another kit car.

I think I'll stay with the Ford motors.

IMSA
 
Hello, !

The market is flooded with parts for Ford engines, even stock lazy 429s...
So why bother ?
A lot of used stuff..
Ford small blocks are small and leight...
It´s all ready in the car ?
Friends of mine has drag raced two bolted engines with beyond 500 HPs..
There are also girdles to be made to beefen up the main´s if that´s worrying with high RPM´s and stuff..
Don´t know the reason, but my friend has a "daily driver" Replica with 450 HP and that´s a killer !
Every body´s talking HP, but you have to handle and drive it as well !
More HP, more problems and the increase of costs with those last HP´s to develop is terrifying.
But if you got the dough..
Experimenting is alway´s fun, but...
More people are turning to Ford as prices and availability are are getting better..
from street to many different forms of racing...
But if you love Chevy, why not ?
Personally, i would´nt bother to swap unless it was a pure economical reason.
And it does not have to be anymore...
If you do not find anything in your home market, i am sure one of the guy´s or girl´s on the Forum can help you out in their different market´s..
Just some thought´s...

Regards,
 

MWGT40

Supporter
Thanks for everyone's thoughts. I haven't decided either way yet as I am still looking at the costings and advantages/disadvantages.

Will keep you all posted.
 
So IMSA, you're saying that if my GT40
is one of the best looking most have ever seen that you would snub it ? Only because I chose to put in a Chevy. You care nothing about the quality workmanship in the "just
another kit car" because it has the wrong engine in your opinion. If this is true then you my friend are one of those that don't get it.
What I choose for myself personally should
not influence the way I percieve anothers car should be. That yard stick is a bad
thing to have to carry around. I look at
all cars and appreciate them for what they are and what the owner tried to do.
I think your formula is all wrong. How
about the so called replica with the Renault
or Audi trans on a ford. Just another
kit car ? I don't think so, but according to your formula, that's the way it works. If you don't use a ZF or a Carcraft trans. then
it's just another kit car.
To all you guys with Chevy engines I think
your choice was fine and I would never think
of insulting you by calling your car just another "Kit Car".
Definition of Replica....An exact copy,
to render identical to the original piece.
I hate to say it but there ain't one car
out there in kit form that has done that.
Holman Moody and Safir are not kits. They
are not included. To me they are true replicas.
grin.gif

IMSA, so which replica do you have ?
Your profile is pretty sparse.

Hersh
smile.gif
 
so martin, 400hp from a 302 is easy, and if done right, not costly. stroking a 302 to a 347 makes it easier than not. contact gordon leavy, he can let you know of the costs. there are a lot of rumors about what you can and cant do with a ford engine. look at the paw catalog, stoking a 302 is cheap. you will make better power with a larger displacement engine.
now i agree with both imsa and hersh, i really think putting a chevy in a gt is bad form. but its not my car.
 
Martin Weigold asked:

“I would appreciate the forums thoughts on the following, possibly controversial topic!”
“I am interested if members think this is a good idea, if anybody has done this before, likely effect on resale value (If I ever were to sell), potential pitfalls etc”

IMSA responded to Martin Weigold post as:

“GT 40 with a Ford engine = Replica.
GT 40 with a Chevy engine = Just another kit car.
I think I'll stay with the Ford motors.”


Hershal Byrd asked:

“So IMSA, you're saying that if my GT40
is one of the best looking most have ever seen that you would snub it ? Only because I chose to put in a Chevy. You care nothing about the quality workmanship in the "just
another kit car" because it has the wrong engine in your opinion.”


IMSA responds:
I seem to have hit a raw nerve here Hersh. Martin asked for members (IMSA # 283)opinions and I gave him my honest opinion regarding what I thought of a GT 40 with a Chevy motor.

I my opinion, I would consider a GT40, Cobra, or any other Ford replica with a Chevrolet motor just another kit car. So the answers to your questions would be a yes to all.


Hershal Byrd asked:

“If this is true then you my friend are one of those that don't get it. “

IMSA responds

Lets see, this is from someone who puts a Chevy in a Ford replica? Perhaps Hersh you are one of those that doesn’t get it.

Lets put it this way Hersh, we can bitch back and forth all night about which motor goes into a replica car. You have your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I’m saying when I see a Chevy in a Cobra, GT 40, or any other Ford based replica, I don’t have as high of an opinion of the vehicle as I would if it had a Ford 302 or 427. Seeing a Chevy in a Ford tells me either the owner couldn’t afford to do a Ford motor, wasn’t aware a Ford motor originally came in the car, just didn’t care, or was cutting corners. Period. I could care less what you decide to put in your car as I would care less what you would think of my engine selection. A Chevy would be an excellent choice in a Lola or Mclaren, just not a Ford.

As for owning a replica, no I don’t own a replica yet. Until I became familiar with this web site and the GT40 replica car manufactures, I had a very low opinion of the fiberglass kit car crap running around and the vast majority of those were powered by Chevy’s. I've been involved in the high performance automotive sector for a long, long time and I may be a bit more critical than alot of people but I know what I consider proper and what I don't consider proper. I will be building a Ford based replica in the near future with the proper Ford engine though.

If you have a problem with my opinion or anything else. Tough shit.

IMSA
 

Ron Earp

Admin
If your motor is built correctly nothing is going to happen at 400 hp - even with the stock Ford casting.

We've built lots of "home-grown" units running an honest-to-god rear wheel hp figures of 425+ with no hand grenades using stock blocks, good heads, and a blower here and there. Street driven daily and drag raced regularily. Pre-91 blocks are preferred due to the use of forged pistons.

Do check the Corral, it is a good suggestion. There are folks alll over doing what you want to do using stock internals and not a lot of cash.

But, I'm not sure about aftermarket support and Ford engine builders in the UK, it probably isn't as common there since I'm sure there were as never many SB Fords running around as there are in the US.

R

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Earp ]
 
IMSA,
Your opinion is respected as I hope mine is.
None of these cars are Fords. They never will be. Reality is that they are just great copies. I just feel that doing your own thing is the best of both worlds. You can do what you want to yours and I will do as I wish to mine. However I won't step in a forum and aspouse that putting any engine other than Ford in a reprodution GT40 makes it just another kit car. I might tell someone what I prefer but I would never tell them it's wrong to do like wise. You are right about the raw nerve. But I guess I must have struck one too. I thought the tough sh!t was a little strong though.
grin.gif

Bottom line is that we agree to disagree. I
certainly wouldn't want to lose a potential
forum friend because of this kind of disagreement. I harbor no hard feelings. Besides if you've been around
hi-performance cars for a long time then we gotta have something in common.
grin.gif

As you can see the guys here are very helpful and many of them are very knowledgeable on these cars. Even if some of us stick bow ties in them.
grin.gif

I look forward to your continued contributions to this forum and hope that
you find the right ford replica to build.

Hersh
smile.gif


PS.. Are you an IMSA fan and what's your
favorite series? mine is ALMS.

[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: Hershal Byrd ]
 
The stock Ford 302 block and crank are generally accepted to be good up to 500 rwhp. The two things that will kill a stock block fastest are high revs and detonation. The main weakness of the Ford block is the two-bolt main bearing design. I plan to address this shortcoming by using the FRPP aluminum block 302 with 8.200" deck height, M-6010-F302. This block has beefy four-bolt mains and should be able to easily handle 500+ hp at revs over 7,000 rpm. The added advantage is it weighs something like 85 pounds less than the stock iron block, with an even greater weight savings over the sportsman or race blocks. The disadvantage is that the block alone costs about $3,500. But if you want to buils a reliable 500+ hp sbc you're going to spend big bucks anyway.
 
Hershel,
I tend to come on strong at times and then spend 20 times as much time and effort apologizing for my outbursts.
We do agree to disagree. You’re happy with Chevy power in you cars which I am sure a fine examples. I happen to have a problem with anything but a Ford power plant in a Cobra or GT40 but that’s just my personal opinion. I too would like to stay on friendly terms with everyone on this board including you . For the time being I would like to keep mum on my upcoming ‘project’ because would like to turn it into a limited production venture in the future. Right now I’m still gathering information and ideas but that’s another story.
Again, my apologies but my Ford roots run long and deep. Good luck and again my apologies.

IMSA
 
IMSA,
No apologies really nessasary. Things
typed are not like a face to face debate and
some words are taken too literally.
I will say that you really have my interest up now that you have mentioned your future
intentions. What ever it is I do hope you will share it with us at the proper time.

Hersh
smile.gif
 
grin.gif

Ahhh, good 'ol Ford vs GM rivarly. It makes the motor racing world go around don't it? even in the USA it seems (as well as Aus)
grin.gif


I think its great to see that this car still manages to arouse such passion. (Who would care if we put a Nissan engine in a Toyota?)

Anyway, I hope that your apologies were aimed at a personal level, and not for the enthusiasm and joy that you both obviously show for your chosen interest.
grin.gif
grin.gif
grin.gif


PS. May I ask - does the strong Ford vs GM rivalry also exist in the UK/Europe? or is it more a Jag vs Ferrari thing? We have a whole national series devoted to it here in Aus that draws 150,000 plus crowds at major events.
 
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