How does the body used by GTD compare to the original

[John S]

Well it seems I have finally become a GT40 owner, having come to an agreement on a GTD.
For some reason I always feel the GTD bodies look slightly different than the original bodies.

Does someone have clear pictures to show the difference and would it be possible to bring the body closer in shape to the original bodies?

John

 

[Mike Pass]

When Ken Attwell (KVA from Kenneth Vincent Attwell) took the moulds from an original car with Ford's permission he was asked to incorporate some differences. The GTD was later developed from the KVA. There are many small differences from original - allegedly about 30. However the easiest one to spot is the KVA/GTD body has an edge which runs from the top of the side windows towards the back of the car. Origimal shells have a smooth curve from the roof down to the door.Also the rear lights on replicas tend to be the large round ones which have all the lights in one unit. Most of the original cars have the separate small lights set vertically in line. I will see if I can find some pics.
Cheers
Mike

 

[Mike Pass]

Pic of GTD ridge at top of side window.

 

[Mike Pass]

Pic of original window top edge with no ridge.

 

[Eric Johnson]

Funny, but my GTD does not have the ridge. Zoom in on my avatar to see.

Maybe my car is an original ! epper:

 

[John S]

Thanks for the replies.

I also feel it applies to the curves of the body, both looking from the side and the front.

Is this true and if so where to owners of original cars get their body parts from say after a crash?

John

 

[René]

are you bringing a car from the US to the Netherlands John?
that would be nice.
LHD or a RHD GTD...
Also, what is original...most are a bit different and or had accidents and got repaired or changed over the years etc etc.

 

[Mike Pass]

As the bodies are GRP they are easily altered by a bit of cutting, sanding fibreglass and filler. The only big drawback is the cost of repainting. Original shape parts are available from Gelscoe, Chris Melia etc.
Cheers
mike

 

[Ian Anderson]

I believe the front of the door / hinge area and split to / from front clip is also a determining feature between original and some replicas.

On the rear bulkhead window some replicas have rounded ends the original are trapezium shaped to match the sloping side of the carb area on the rear clip.

GTD cockpit section (also known as the spider) is fibreglass on original is pressed steel this in turn makes the area around the windscreen a lot thicker on GTD compared to original.

None of above are noticed by anyone other than a small groupof people found on this site. General public would not notice the differences
Ian

 

[John S]

None of above are noticed by anyone other than a small groupof people found on this site. General public would not notice the differences
Ian

Hahaha, okay but I always felt a GTD looked slightly different. I can easily tell you what the visual differences are between a 308 and a 328, but I couldn't quite do the same with the GTD and an original.
Maybe I should get some good shots of orignal GT40's and GTD's and compare them side by side.

I feel the slope of the rear body shell is slightly steeper than on the original (so lower at the end). Also looking head on at the front the shape under the head lights seem to be more rounded off.

Original shape parts are available from Gelscoe, Chris Melia etc.

Will these easily fit on a GTD?

are you bringing a car from the US to the Netherlands John?

No, it will be a UK car, RHD.

John

 

[Mike Pass]

Whether original panels will fit a GTD or vice versa is tricky one. The entire front and entire rear clips should be interchangeable with a bit of fettling. The front nostril panel and the doors are unlikely to fit. I do know that KVA doors and GTD are not the same as I had both cars at one time and some spare doors also and they would need work to get them to fit. I have also tried a Southern GT front nostril on a Tornado and it was a different shape. On many replicas the front top left hand side of the spider sits a little low. This is common on both KVAs and GTDs and may be due to a common source moulding.
There was a suggestion some years ago that some moulds were tkan off a car that had been rebuilt after an accident and which was therefore a little out of kilter. This may account for some of the discrepancies between types of cars which have crept over generations. They were all original but some are more original than others!
Cheers
Mike

 

[Scott]

To the OP,
Generally speaking, original body parts will not fit KVA or GTD without a lot of re-working. The major problem is the spider is different at the rear edge/contour. The doors and front clips are different as well. If you want the original look, buy a COMPLETE original body. Otherwise, you are in for a LOT of work trying to graft on different parts from different manufacturers. I have two gt40s, KVA and RCR. They are NOT easily inter-changeable. Best, Scott

 

[John S]

Okay, that is good information. Both the part that original bodywork won't fit and the part about the top left part of the spider being out of line.

I tried to look at some of the pictures I took at the Classic Le Mans (and posted on this forum back then) of the original cars, but I am afraid I will have to wait till I have my car overhere and take pictures at the same angle I shot some of the original cars.

What I did notice is that the original cars seem to sit lower than most of the 'earlier' replicas, which is understandable since most replicas are driven on the road and therefore sit slightly higher. I also noticed that some original cars have a more rounded front section with a rounder shape of the part that runs over the front wheels. In pictures taken from the side you can easily spot the difference, but if you look closely you can also spot this on pictures taken from the front.

Maybe I should ask someone like Mick Sollis what he can do. In the end I think I just have to wait till my GTD arrives overhere.

Interesting topic though.

John

PS. Sorry, I just noticed that the last picture doesn't really work as I cropped the low res picture instead of going back to the original to make the car slightly bigger. Try to look at the part that runs over the front wheels and you see a different curve and slope.

 

[Jim Craik]

John,

I think what you are seeing is the difference between a MKI and MKII front clip. The MKI front clip only arches up very slightly (1 to 2 inches at most) from a line drawn forward along the bottom of the door window, where the MKII front clip has a pronounced arch up and over the front tires. This is very noticable in photos of SPF MKI & MKII cars.

In your side photos, car# 29 appears to have a MKI front clip and car# 30 has the more pronounsed arch of the MKII clip.

These are fairly subtle differences and both are correct. If you go through photos from back in the day, you will ocasionally see MKI cars with MKII front clips and vice versa.

One other thing I have noticed is that in the MKII clip, the high point of the clip appears to be slightly forward of the highest point of the front tires, this always struck me as kind of odd, I wonder if there was a reason for this?

 

[Mike Pass]

Also note that a very slight change in the angle of view of a complex compound curve has a dramatic effect on the shape you see. To get a true comparison you have to take the pic from exactly the same point for both.
Cheers
Mike

 

[John S]

John,

I think what you are seeing is the difference between a MKI and MKII front clip.

Oops, you must be right. Didn't think about that, think I was too quick comparing photos I had taken at Le Mans. Moreover, I should compare photos of the orginal cars with my own GTD instead of original cars with original cars.

Also note that a very slight change in the angle of view of a complex compound curve has a dramatic effect on the shape you see. To get a true comparison you have to take the pic from exactly the same point for both.

I realised that, but still found it easy to spot. Will do that once I get my car overhere and make sure I get the same angle.

John

 

[Allan Feldman]

Speaking as someone who's not trying to misinform or be a smart Alec the following might help you. I do not know if Ray Christopher took the measurements from a MKI (I suspect so); but I do know that Ken Atwells measurements came from a real MKIII. I have more knowledge of the real cars history. When I visited Ken Attwell in the eighties. his original measurements were taken from from a real MKIII road car. I am no expert but from what I have been told the clips are angled for a MKIII central section. I would have thought that all the central sections of GT40 be they MKI, MKII, MKIII were similar?
The ridge is strange as GTD and KVA have it but no real GT40 has them I seem to remember someone saying they were for strengthening. I hope I get this the right way round the sides of the real car are curved.
You would have to be specific about the MKI and MKII. The front clip does have raised humps on the MKII. I thought that this was because of the bottoming cause by the banking at Daytona where the tyres were rubbing against the bodywork and the tops of the wheel arches on the drivers side had a hole cut out (this was covered over). But out Sebring they had no such modification. So it was just for Le Mans and onwards.
The obvious differences about the MKI and MKII (after mentioning the humps) is that the MKII has its front panel hinged at least the for the 1966 car and there is no central duct in front of windscreen.
As for front and back clip they were to all purposes interchangeable between MKI, MKII and MKIII. As Jim said you will see MKI with MKII front clips if you go though Ronnie Spains book a number of MKI chassis were supplied that way. I have seen pre-1965 front clips with a 1965 twin light tail on a MKI being raced in 1970. The most obvious use being a MKIII side windows on a MKI.
Its my understanding that SP, CAV, SAFIR cars can use 90% of the original GT40 parts but I am not sure a GTD or KVA would be able to use real GT40 body panels.
By the way I like your Essex Wire colour scheme!
Regards Allan

 

[EGLITOM]

John you are right, they look somehow different on the picture, but if you see a GTD in real and have a original car or a replica with an original bodywork side by side, they look even more different. There are many obvious differences.
FRONTCLIP. biggest thing here is something i call the "bid dent", the area in front of the center naca duct seems to be sunken in. it realy is a dish there whereas on orginal cars it is a flat or even slightly outwards bend area. Also curvature in the transition area around the windscreen from front clip to door. Much more flat in angle ( probably by reshaping and copying the already copied parts over and over).
SPIDER: width of A pillar is wider ( original GT40 windscreen will not fit, as on some other replicas, someone did a excel table for that and it is somewhere on this forum)
ROCKER PANELS: They have a curvature front to rear in the transition to the wheel wells which original cars don´t have at all. Also the curvature from top to bottom is different.
WHEEL wells: the circular shape of them is different , especially on the rear (one of the reasons why those cars look like sitting higher, this may be the case , but also the rear wheel wells are cut out more and in a circular shape instead of ´the ellepsoid shape of originals.

Some of this things can be corrected quite easily on the existing body, but overall you may be doing better, selling this body and buying a complete original copy including spider.

TOM

 

[Ron Scarboro]

Some of this things can be corrected quite easily on the existing body, but overall you may be doing better, selling this body and buying a complete original copy including spider.TOM

Where do you get an original type body?

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

RCR....