917 at Snetterton !

[91740Gt]

Couple of pictures of the 917 at Snetterton SRGT race recently. It is in a different league to my 40, which is like a comfortable sofa, compared to the Porsche !!!!

Graham @ GTA / Gulf Oil UK Racing.

[Sandy]

Fantastic shots!

Sandy

[Malcolm]

Hi Graham

That looks excellent and having sat in it I know the build quality is there too! It really is a wide car!

Well done

[Jude The Obscure]

Fabulous Graham. Is it a long or short tail? Difficult to see from that angle...

[91740Gt]

Keith,

This is the short tail version or Kurz. Hence 917K.

Graham @ GTA / Gulf Oil UK Racing.

[Jude The Obscure]

K-k-k-kool Graham, thanks...

PS we wants one but only with a V12 boxer so, I guess, er, we ain't gettin' one anytime soon.

[91740Gt]

Keith,

You will be able to get one sooner than you think. I have sent Fran a complete original bodyshell and windscreen etc, etc, and the new original type chassis and correct bodyshelled 917K s are now being worked on at RCR hopefully for sale later this year. You can put your own engine in then and take rocket flying lessons beforehand !!!!

I,ll assemble them over here for UK and European customers who have the nerve to drive them !!!! 40s are sedate armchairs compared to the 917 !!!!!!!

Regards,

Graham.

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Originally Posted by 91740Gt

Keith,
40s are sedate armchairs compared to the 917 !!!!!!!

Regards,

Graham.

Hi Graham -

Great looking car, superb, however the 'in-car' experience video'd from Robin's 'Yellow Peril' at SPA seems to show the 40 to be anything but sedate..... Robin was passing everything in sight!!

[Lars Oberg]

OK Paul,

now you have to prove your statement by making the video of the "Yellow Peril" at Spa available on the GTD web-site!!!

/Lars

[91740Gt]

Paul,

No doubt Robin was passing some cars especially when he fell off in practice and broke his rear suspension. Thankfully my chief engineer, Nick Dames, was able to reweld it up for him to race again before he ran a wheel bearing i believe !!

Anyway, a video has no bearing at all on what i said. The two types of car are TOTALLY different in concept, design and driving characteristics and the 40 is, as i said,is sedate and like a comfortable sofa compared to the 917.
You will always feel safe and protected in a 40 because of its road orientated design of the sixties, whereas the 917 was built with a different design and strategy some years later.

So instead of coming out with silly challenges and swipes i suggest that you drive a 917 derivative in anger on the track and then eat your words.

Spa was interesting and an eye opener ..... the 917 had never raced before, let alone at Spa. It was fresh out of build, unsorted,stuck in fourth gear for both practices and the race and still managed to be 17th on the grid out of 78 cars. Willy Kausen said that i was mad to take it out for its first shakedown at Spa and that it would take months of testing to get it set up right, just as it had done with the originals. Well he was correct and it is coming together now.

As a matter of interest Paul, how many years has the yellow peril been running .......... !!!!!!!!!!!!

Graham.

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Blimey Graham! - calm down calm down!

In response to your posting, the video I viewed was of Robin in the race (not practice) and after a slow start, I believe he was unaware the race had started initially, he really started to move. I think you are correct, he did retire with a bearing failure.

Your remark about the 917 and 40 being totally different I agree with. The 40s will surely offer far more protection in an impact than the 917s and I'm sure the 917 must feel a lot 'harsher' than a 40 on a track, but my response was not a side swipe or challenge to anyone, it was merely observation of Robin's driving at Spa. The look and sound from the in-car footage was simply awesome!... and again I say, his progress was anything but sedate! YES - I'm sure that the 917s were faster than 40s (and a presumably more successfull?? car) but they were also in general a lot more powerfull and as you say, not conceived as a road car.

If I can get permission, I will attempt to post some of the footage in due course.

We have previously covered the antics of Robin that weekend in a club magazine, detailing all the highs and lows of the event, including a rather smart shot of your 'Mighty 917'. As editor of the club magazine, I would more than welcome copy for inclusion re your 917 racing experiences/development as I am sure most club members would be interested. If you get a chance, or one of your crew/team, drop me a line...

Finally - re me driving a 917, (not that I would ever get the chance), unfortunately I would not fit! - I am a somewhat 'tight fit' in a 40 to say the least so a 917 would be out of the question. I remember well the time at Curborough Sprint when Derek Bell gave me a lift to the start line in his T70 and that was tight!, my knees were up around my armpits! (or it felt like they were!)...

One last thing, hats off to anyone brave enough to try hard in a 917, I spoke to Ray Bellm recently practicing for a Historic GT event at Brands Hatch and referring to a nearby McLaren M8, he mentioned that although he had driven one in his youth, he was more 'choosy' about what he drove these days.... something along the lines of driver safety/survival etc etc.
(more details of Rays car '1018' in the Summer Club mag due out shortly)..

[roaldin]

Originally Posted by 91740Gt

Paul,

...So instead of coming out with silly challenges and swipes i suggest that you drive a 917 derivative in anger on the track and then eat your words... Graham.

Crikey!
I'm not sure if there's any bad blood here but on the surface that (and the rest) seemed a bit of an over-reaction...

Calling a GT40 a "sedate armchair" on a GT40 forum seems like a fairly provocative thing to do (although I'm sure most of us will take it on the chin). Surely Paul's reply was thrown in as tongue in cheek and I'd have thought it fair enough in the above context.

Stay cool guys, it's far more becoming.

Long live the armchair!

BTW I am also a fan of the 917 and have been since they were new. Great pic's! Truly beautiful. Anymore? Video? Please...!

Tim. (quickest armchair in my street)

[91740Gt]

OK folks,

Sorry, the word "sedate" was the the wrong choice. It is probably that i have had so many enquiries about the purchase of the 917 from people who think that they can take them down to the local store, as you could do with the 40 in "relative" comfort. At only 800 Kg the 917 is "alive" and like a "scalded cat on steroids". You feel as one with the chassis when strapped in and that very forward and laid flat driving position, despite its vunerability, makes it an incredibly precise car to drive. I adore driving it, despite the huge amount of development work and expence. There is also a huge difference between just doing track days or having them as show cars, and actually racing them. I,m doing the latter and pushing the development that much further, so my comparison for Keith, who has also raced properly, was to aid his decision in case he wants one.

It is so very different to the 40 and i was just trying to give the comparison in simple personal feelings.

Graham.

[Jude The Obscure]

Oh yes, we certainly wants one all right......

What motor do you recommend for maximum tarnished underwear effect?

Could a lightweight ali yank pushrod V8 work OK?

[Mark Worthington]

I think you'd want to put some sort of an air-cooled Porsche engine in it - probably turbocharged. I also expect you'd pay dearly on a $/hp basis compared to a V8 - that ass-engine stuff is expensive. While a flat 12 like the originals had would be wonderful, it would either be outrageously expensive or it would be utterly unreliable, IMO. I've read that Porsche had to do a lot of development work on the 917 engine to get the crankshaft harmonics sorted out. Based on what I read, I think it would be nearly impossible for someone to "join" two 6-cylinder boxter engines in an effort to replicate the 917's mill.

If I could fit into and afford and race a 917 replica (I can't), I'd drop a worked Chevy LS1 into it. It's priceless to see how pissed off the Porsche diehards get when people show up with 911s that have Chevy engines in them.

[Jude The Obscure]

By sheer co-incidence, just watched a TV program called "Ultimate Sports Racing Cars" where Daytona Coupe came in 5th, Jaguar D Type 4th, Auto Union C type 3rd, GT40 2nd and top of the list - you guessed it: Porsche 917 which they called THE most awesome (and dangerous) machine ever produced. 1,000 bhp in an 800 kg chassis: faster than the F1 cars of the day. Emmerson Fittipaldi took his mother for a drive at over 200mph and she fainted!

One year later (1972) it was gone from Le Mans forever as they banned the 5 litre class.

That's probably why I wants one....

Awesome....

[91740Gt]

Engines for a 917K ?

Well, Mark is right that Porsche engines are relatively expensive, and the 12 cylinder versions are beyond the reach of most. The 6 cylinder are the logical way to go in a 917. I,m very restricted in the historical based race series i run in as we are not allowed turbo, supercharging or fuel injection.

For the street or track days though, or whatever other race series you can enter in the US, just imagine what a twin turbo,d Porsche engine could deliver in such a lightweight chassis. Far better power to weight ratio than the originals, thus giving, if you can find enough road, speeds well in excess of 220 mph with the right gearing.

The RCR chassis is as original, but could easily be adapted to take many engine configurations that the owner might care to do. From the current demand we know that most will go down the Porsche route and as far as Fran and i are concerned, originality is very important for this most iconic of cars. The GT40 is a wonderful, beautiful, brutish, vehicle and i, like all other owners would be a millionaire if i had a pound for every photo taken of it.
I,d be a multi millionaire with the 917 ........ such is its draw. Do your selves a big favour and order one.

Graham @ GTA.

[Marcus]

[QUOTE=Mark Worthington]I think you'd want to put some sort of an air-cooled Porsche engine in it - probably turbocharged. I also expect you'd pay dearly on a $/hp basis compared to a V8 - that ass-engine stuff is expensive. While a flat 12 like the originals had would be wonderful, it would either be outrageously expensive or it would be utterly unreliable, IMO. I've read that Porsche had to do a lot of development work on the 917 engine to get the crankshaft harmonics sorted out. Based on what I read, I think it would be nearly impossible for someone to "join" two 6-cylinder boxter engines in an effort to replicate the 917's mill.


Mark,
the 917 actually ran a 180 degree V-12, thus two conrods sharing one pin,
which made for a quite compact engine.
So not only would coupling two flat 6s bring reliability problems with it but also too much lenght of the engine with each rod sitting on its own pin.
An engine like this not only would become quite heavy (compared to the original one made of magnesium, titanium etc.) but also shifts the CoG too far towards the rear ot the car.
So I think Graham is absolutely right by suggesting to go with a flat 6.
On the other hand, Mark, you do have a real point in saying that the "power to price"-ratio is far better on a V 8 lump.

Best,
Marcus

[FredV]

Graham,

It might be a silly question, but deos the engine turned in the right side when you put it in the 917 ? If i remember well in Porsches (911, 993,996 ...) the gearbox is in front of the engine, means if you put the box back side (so the engine do a 180°) by the way you should go rearward no ?
I am nut sure beeing very clear ...

[allanfeldman]

Graham
Both the 40 and the 917 were dangerous in their early years. But I could not believe the 1971 917 LH that was at Goodwood Festival of Speed had no roll cage protection at all!!!!. Perhaps this was not in its original form? But if it was why did it follow the full rollcages and fire equipment that say the Ford MKIV had in 1967?
regards Allan