DO NOT BUY FROM T& L Engines!!

Just wanted to give everyone a heads up about my experience with T& L Engines!! I placed an order for a 427 stroker in early June and gave them a deposit. They claimed it would be ready in 4 to 6 weeks. I haven't been able to reach them for several weeks now and want to warn everyone AWAY from T & L engines. They do not deliver. I am out about $6000. plus a custom oil pan and don't think I will ever see the money again. I have left messages on their phones , sent letters and emails and have not gotten any reply. This has put a real crimp in my dream and I don't know when I'll be able to finish my car.

Please do yourself a favor and DO NOT BUY or ORDER from T & L Engines!! They are a SCAM!!:furious:
 

Jack Houpe

GT40s Supporter
Bruce by NC state law if you purchase something fraudulently you are entitled to 3 times your purchase. Now getting it is another thing. You will more than likely have your motor within the next month. Took that long to receive mine and I ordered mine in July of 07, received in January 08. The 6-8 week thing is bull.
 

Keith

Moderator
I was going to say Bruce that compared with others - you haven't a problem, yet. That's no excuse of course, but the danger is - it appears that T&L, like a Pyramid marketing structure, will eventually run out of steam (new customers coming in with cash) and those outstanding deposits are likely to be lost.

Go see them - I would.
 
Guys,
Thanks for the feedback. You are right I should have looked for posts first! Just needed to get this off my chest. The problem in getting my money back is its too small for a lawyer and I am New Mexico. Any suggestions are welcome.
 

Jack Houpe

GT40s Supporter
Guys,
Thanks for the feedback. You are right I should have looked for posts first! Just needed to get this off my chest. The problem in getting my money back is its too small for a lawyer and I am New Mexico. Any suggestions are welcome.

I am bidding on a Ferrari 355 engine on ebay if I get it I will have to take a road trip to NY. I plan on stopping by and seeing Dennis Olthoff just to say hello, T&L is 30-40 miles south. I will drive by and see if they are open if I go. But I would just call the local Sheriff and tell them the situation, maybe a drive by just to see if any cars are in the lot during the day. I think he had about 6-8 people working with him. I would not buy from him again because of this type of sh-t, but he build me a good motor, I am pushing 7000k miles without a hick up and its been pushed to max several times.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Hey Bruce,

Maybe Jack can help out some. We also have some NC members (like myself) that might be able to help out.

But before I'd do any of that collect information from the other Ford sites. I remember some organization around a class action lawsuit against T&L. Every Ford forum has threads about T&L and problems, they should be avoided. The Corral, SVT Performance, F150 Online - I can remember seeing T&L problem threads on all of those so I'd check around and see if there is an organized effort.

How do folks learn about T&L? I had never heard of them until a couple of years ago with respect to the engine problems.

Ron
 
As a follow on to Ron's question, I'm curious why someone is attracted to use T&L in the first place (not trying to be a wise guy here)? Are they super price competitive, or is the website super flashy? Or did early customers get great engines and recommend them to others, not realizing what was happening with the business?
 
The basic problem with the T&L situation from the perspective of a disgruntled consumer is that the consumer is struggling to get some leverage over the guy. If you don't have some leverage then it doesn't really matter how many letters you write to him or phone calls you make - his lack of response actually is a response, specifically, he's not going to do anything to honor the inducements to purchase (such as delivery timing).

So how do you get leverage? Well, obviously, you can sue the guy. However, nobody wants to throw good money after bad and lose another $10,000 in litigation costs for a potentially unenforceable judgment. Remember, a judgment is of no benefit unless you can actually enforce it through a garnishment or a lien, and even then you're stuck with a less-than-ideal outcome (garnishment=trickle of money, lien=no immediate cash).

So, what do you do? Start with things like contacting the Attorney General in T&L's home state. If everyone who has been screwed by T&L wrote a nice fact-based letter to the Attorney General then T&L wouldn't be in business today. The AG has the authority and resources to very easily shut down a business w/in the state where the business is demonstrably engaging in repetitive fraudulent practices. And, they can, and will, draw in the criminal law authorities if the fraud rises to the criminal level. Here's the link the North Carolina AG: File a Complaint

You can also draw in Federal authorities to try to gain some leverage. Because T&L sells via the internet then they are engaging in interstate commerce and thus all the Federal consumer fraud legislation applies. The FTC is a good starting poing and has a consumer protection mandate with an online portal for collecting data relating to consumer fraud here (just like the NC AG's office): https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

And, at the local level, as Jack suggested above, contacting the local police and making a formal statement could prove helpful. If nothing else, the local police might go by and interview the owner. Being interviewed by the local police tends to make people take notice.

The above is just a few suggestions - there are more. But the point is to get some leverage on him and put some pain in his backyard rather than wasting your time writing/phoning a guy who is obviously blowing you off. Again, his lack of response actually is a response. Don't kid yourself and think that he's just forgetful or a poor business man (that's probably true as well....). He's not responding because he has no intention of shipping you your engine on time, or perhaps not at all and he doesn't have the backbone to tell you this directly.

I once bought an f-car via ebay from some dirt-bag auto dealer in NJ (should have known better). Litigation would have been fruitless, but through a combination of contacting local authorities, the AG and the FTC enough pressure was exerted that they returned the money (the car was never delivered). I later learned (when their bank called me after they defaulted on their line of credit) that they sold all of the inventory several times over in rapid fire and then trucked it all to another state and started again with fraudulent sales. The bank told me that their investigator determined I was the only one to get a refund of monies paid out of several hundred defrauded buyers - they obviously didn't want their cover blown until they could run the whole scam process across a large number of deceived buyers taking many weeks.

So, the point is, forget about writing more letters/emails to T&L, go get some leverage first!

That said, T&L probably does deliver a bunch of decent engines to people who have placed orders, but likely on a high delayed time schedule. So I'm not suggesting T&L is running a similar scam. But, their business practices aren't right and they should have to answer to parties with authority (local police, AG, FTC) to either make them change their ways, or deny them the right to do business at all.
 

Jack Houpe

GT40s Supporter
Hey Bruce,

Maybe Jack can help out some. We also have some NC members (like myself) that might be able to help out.

But before I'd do any of that collect information from the other Ford sites. I remember some organization around a class action lawsuit against T&L. Every Ford forum has threads about T&L and problems, they should be avoided. The Corral, SVT Performance, F150 Online - I can remember seeing T&L problem threads on all of those so I'd check around and see if there is an organized effort.

How do folks learn about T&L? I had never heard of them until a couple of years ago with respect to the engine problems.

Ron

Ebay Ron, they have many different engine combo's for sale on ebay. You are correct, they need to be avoided totally.

Cliff, well said.
 
Bruce, I just looked up T&L's website and began testing the waters. I put a feeler out to them indicating I was interested in purchasing a motor from them for my car. I told them I was going to need a motor by mid-summer '10 (lie, my build's been moving so slow it will probably be 2020 before it's done). If they respond, I intend to play with them for a while, and I'll keep you apprised of the conversation.

I purchased a motor quite a few years ago for my Cobra from Indy Mustang Performance. The Indiana Attorney General has since shut them down. They were also making internet sales. Their prices where cheap, too cheap really, but I knew it. I feared their quality of work was suspect, but the price for a complete motor was less than I could by the parts for. In the end, that's what I bought, the parts, as I had to completely tear down the motor, remachine some of the parts, and rebalance the motor. If memory serves me, the motor was out of balance by 58 grams on the nose of the crank, and 243 grams on the rear. There were chatter marks on the rod and main bearings after 300 miles. Any more, I have a reputable machine shop to the prep work, and I assemble the motor as I don't trust anyone anymore.

Back to the point at hand though, I'll keep you apprised of whether or not there is activity at T&L through the internet sales link. If there is, I'll bait them a little and find out what's going on.
 
If you have not purchased an engine yet, give these guy's a phone call. They are a local northeast business and they do what they say on time and on budget. They have been around for a long time and are popular with the Busch North guy's at Stafford Springs Motor Speedway.

I have built many engines with them both for personal and professional use over the years, and I have never been disappointed.



Precision Automotive, inc.
9 Herman Drive
Simsbury, CT 06070

Norman L. Case

Phone (860) 651-3418
Fax (860) 651-7665
Email [email protected]
 

Brian Kissel

Staff member
Admin
Lifetime Supporter
He hasn't logged on since 2008. But that doesn't keep him from being invisible as a visitor.

General Information
Last Activity: 08-20-08 08:00 AM
Join Date: 08-18-08
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Regards Brian
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Bruce, I'm an attorney in Raleigh, NC and a friend of Ron's.

I hate this kind of crap and I'd be more than willing to spend 30 minutes and write a letter to these guys on your behalf, for free. It may or may not get you anywhere, but it can't hurt.

I'm moving my law practice right now to a new firm, but you will be able to reach me in a few days at [email protected].

Let me know if I can help. Have had some experience with crappy supplies unfortunately -- for myself and helping Ron out.
 

Jack Houpe

GT40s Supporter
Bruce, I'm an attorney in Raleigh, NC and a friend of Ron's.

I hate this kind of crap and I'd be more than willing to spend 30 minutes and write a letter to these guys on your behalf, for free. It may or may not get you anywhere, but it can't hurt.

I'm moving my law practice right now to a new firm, but you will be able to reach me in a few days at [email protected].

Let me know if I can help. Have had some experience with crappy supplies unfortunately -- for myself and helping Ron out.

My hat is off to you! You can't get any better than that!
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Yes, and Chuck in Illinois just pulled his T&L- built 302, which flunked a leakdown and compression test. Someone ought to shove these jerks off the planet and let them build engines on Mars. Or Pluto. Whatever.
 
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