Nylon Bushings

[William Grow]

I did some poking around the inter-webz and it seems that Nylon is preferred over Poly as a bushing material when it comes to "rotational applications" but I had trouble finding a nylon bushing supplier in the automotive community though (some like "Corvair USA" offered nylon bushing kits, but they were vehicle specific)

For "universal applications" I found this supplier, but they're not really "automotive specific": ASB Bearings: Plastic PTFE Bushings and Bearings

Before I contact them I wanted your respective opinions: Is a nylon bushing (from a reputable dealer... ie: not china) as good as another or are there unique requirements for an automotive application that would need to be met?

(This is for GT40 suspension A-arms etc.)

Also open to other bushing material suggestions.

Thanks
-Bill

 

[Jim Cowden]

Bill

My lower inners are nylon.
It was just from a plastics supplier in bar form,I machined them myself.
If you dont have a lathe, suppliers generally will have a machine shop.

I cant remember the type of nylon but it was not glass filled (GF) as it will chop the inner sleeves.
The supplier will advise.
I did put a grease nipple in it.

Jim

 

[William Grow]

Well, there is a lathe in our shop, but its brand new so no one is allowed to touch it. It just sits there covered in what looks like cosmoline and gathers dust...

But your post reminds me, what is the maintenance upkeep like for nylon? Do you just grease em whenever you're in the area or do you have a set schedule?

Thanks
-Bill

 

[David]

You have to be careful about the type of grease used with Nylon, it also absorbs water which can cause it to swell, soften and in the case of something with low tolerances bind (as well as wear).

It really depends on what you want out of the car, for racing and limited road use consider 'hard' joints such as rose (heim) joints. For pure road use go rubber. For somewhere in between I'm not sure you'll improve much on the commercially available 'poly bushes' given the amount of time/money/effort on trying other things out.

 

[AdrianBurton]

You could try Delrin for bushings

 

[Jim Cowden]

Bill

It has done 1400km - 800-1000km was track miles ,I have greased them once and have no idea when it will get done next.

I am still working out servicing schedules but they are not giving issues with tolerances I can tell you that much.

I cut a slot on the internal OD at the entry of the nipple so the grease goes the length of the bush.
A gunbarrel spiral whould have been neat but lathe wont turn that slow.

Get the cover of that lathe at work, Who the F### buys a lathe then dosnt use it.
Tell your boss to get over it.

Adrian I think it was Delrin.
I lost a lot info on a memory stick so I cant commit unless I pull them out,Cant do that any time soon.

Jim

 

[William Grow]

I've heard of delrin before but only by name, I'm afraid I don't know much about it as a bushing material.

Jim: It's government work... They bought the lathe, now they have to certify it "safe for use", but first they have to find someone here in Hungary that can do that... I'm not expecting to get anything done on it any time soon. But I DO have a laundry list of ideas for the day I CAN do something on it.

David: I thought about Heim joints but the work involved with modifying the already built A-arms would be a bit of a pain to say the least. Herb Adams had a lot of good stuff to say about Nylon as a bushing material in his book "Chassis Engineering" is why I started to give it a look. I figure the "worst case scenario" could only be that I end up buying the Poly bushings offered on GTS's site (I think they're only about $6 a pair with steel sleeve)

Good times,
-Bill

 

[William Grow]

Delrin has caught my attention as a bushing material but I'm still a bit fuzzy as to the grades. Would delrin 150 stock make a good candidate? Delrin Rod | Delrin 150 Black, 1.250in DIA. X 60in Long Rod Plastics International Online Store

I found a bit more info at this site: www.professionalplastics.com with this nifty table.

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font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]--> <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="border-collapse:collapse;mso-table-layout-alt:fixed;border:none; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-border-insideh:.5pt solid windowtext;mso-border-insidev:.5pt solid windowtext" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes"> <td style="width:1.95in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="187">

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Acetron GP​

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Delrin 150E​

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Delrin 500/550​

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Delrin 507​

</td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:1"> <td style="width:1.95in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="187"> Tensile Strength

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

9,300​

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10,900​

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</td> <td style="width:121.5pt;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="162"> 10,000
</td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:2"> <td style="width:1.95in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="187"> Elongation

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

68​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

64​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168"> 15
</td> <td style="width:121.5pt;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="162"> 15
</td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:3"> <td style="width:1.95in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="187"> Tensile Modulus

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

410,000​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

520,000​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168"> 450,000
</td> <td style="width:121.5pt;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="162"> 450,000
</td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:4"> <td style="width:1.95in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="187"> Tensile Impact

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

96​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

152​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168"> 100
</td> <td style="width:121.5pt;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="162"> 100
</td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:5"> <td style="width:1.95in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="187"> Rockwell Hardness

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

R118​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

R120​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168"> R120
</td> <td style="width:121.5pt;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="162"> R120
</td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:6"> <td style="width:1.95in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="187"> Heat Deflection Temp. 264 psi
</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

230°F​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

255°F​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168"> 270°F
</td> <td style="width:121.5pt;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="162"> 270°F
</td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:7"> <td style="width:1.95in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="187"> Continuous Use Temperature
</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

200°F​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

180°F​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168"> 180°F
</td> <td style="width:121.5pt;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="162"> 180°F
</td> </tr> <tr style="mso-yfti-irow:8;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes"> <td style="width:1.95in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt; border-top:none;mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="187"> Specific Gravity

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

1.41​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168">

1.42​

</td> <td style="width:1.75in;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="168"> 1.42
</td> <td style="width:121.5pt;border-top:none;border-left: none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-top-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt" valign="top" width="162"> 1.42
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Thanks
-Bill

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

Use only Nylon for suspension bushings -- the best, is self lubricating "oilon" , an oil filled or graphite impregnated PA6 (polyamide grade 6) its more durable than the POM (acetal , delrin)
---using off the shelf bar stock, otherwise a specific polymer can be engineered to suit the optimum requirements and injection moulded

 

[PhillipM]

As above, use the 'Oilon' nylon grade for suspension bushings, or if the wallet stretches, 'Nylube' is even better.

 

[William Grow]

Awesome, thanks. The search continues, but I'm having a bit of trouble finding a supplier for "suspension bushing stock"... My google-fu must be getting weak...

 

[William Grow]

Posted too soon... Found Polyamide grade 6 here: McMaster-Carr


Thanks for all the help guys,
-Bill

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

:ideaoly urethane is widely used for suspension bushings -- is quite tough and durable -- more foregiving than nylon -- comes in varying hardness -- eg; aim for a 50 durometer D scale -- doesnt like much heat and needs to be lubricated with a graphite grease..............

 

[Eric A.]

What about using UHMW Polyethylene for suspension bushings? I have seen this recommended on other forums.
Enco - Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Tools and Shop Supplies

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

UHMWPE (Umpy) - polyolifin- an oil based plastic --PP, PE are at the beginning of pricing (cheapest) --can be used in light applications -- will flog out much quicker than nylon.

Note for nylon :- Its hydroscopic - for example, will absorb moisture during a humid / wet day and swell , thus giving a binding effect -- and on a dry day will contract, this giving a loose fit.

er, what David said

 

[Chris Duncan]

I prefer polyurethane over nylon. Specifically black hard urethane. Can be graphic impregnated. You can use Dow111 silicone to lubricate them.

Energy Suspension Link-Flange Bushings - JEGS


my suspension has rod ends on the outside joints and urethane on the inside joints. So as much rigidity as possible without being too harsh for the street.

 

[William Grow]

In the end I may lean toward Poly as:

1) it's not that expensive.
2) I am hearing Delrin/Nylon is "too harsh" for roads
3) it's just plain easier to buy than build

but dang if it wouldn't be cool to make my own bushings!

I do take the "it's too harsh for roads" advice to heart a bit more these days than I used to. I made the mistake of not listening once about putting coil-overs on my daily driver/auto-x car and paid for it in spades every day on my commute... Now, I wont be commuting every day with a GT40 but I'm not a big fan of spinal compression over poorly maintained highways when I DO go for a drive either...

Thanks,
-Bill

 

[Doug S.]

You could try Delrin for bushings

I have some experience with Delrin...very machinable, reported to be self-lubricating.

Sorta expensive, $75 for a 10 foot rod with a diameter of less than 2".

My suggestion would be graphite impregnated polyurethane. In the end not quite half the bushings I installed on my Cobra's parallel 4-bar rear suspension were delrin, the rest were graphite impregnated poly and I can't tell a bit of difference between the two in performance or durability.

If you're interested in the graphite-impregnated poly, here's the info I can give.

Enough bushings and the inner sleeve to refurbish one end of a bar was around $7, IIRC...that was cheaper than we could machine them out of Delrin by far. The information included said to lube the assembly with anti-sieze compound. It worked exactly as described, has performed flawlessly.

Admittedly, there isn't much rotation to the action, but the rear bars do move in much the same plane as would your trailing arms.

Here's where I found them, you can search by specific function or there is a chart for standard sizes available in the after market:

Here's the main page: Suspension Restoration Parts Co.

Here's the info on ordering bushings to your specifications: Suspension Restoration Parts Co. polyurethane special order bushing page

While they may not help in your specific application, here are the standard size 4-bar bushings available: Suspension Restoration Parts Co. polyurethane special order bushing page

My experience with the company was quite satisfactory, their shipping charges were reasonable (mine came USPS, Priority Mail), their service was quit speedy...the quality of the parts seems to be equal to the Delrin at least...AND, NO SQUEAKS!!! The graphite impregnated material really doesn't seem to squeak, although I must have really used WAAAY too much anti-sieze compoun putting them together, it was squeezing out the ends.

The sleeves fit the OD of my bolts perfectly....

Hope this helps!

Cheers!

Doug

 

[Chris Duncan]

I used the same dimension coilover shock bushing throughout the car, for suspension, shocks, engine and trans mounts. Pretty versatile, you can change the inner diameter of the metal sleeve and use different size bolts. You can make them wider by using a longer sleeve and you can also sand down these bushings on a belt sander to narrow the width dimension.

They are normally supplied with steel sleeves. I made all my own sleeves out of 6061-T6 to reduce weight. Seems to be working fine so far.

Somewhere in the archives is a post about a custom G50 Trans mount that uses these bushings.