SBF water pumps

mike_starling · 09-17-04, 08:00 AM

Guys,

A post here a very long time ago, suggested:

[ QUOTE ]
Short v belt pump that was developed by Ford to make it easier to install Ford engines in Street Rods. The part number is M-8501-E351. Ford has reduced the price of this pump to around $85.00 - $110.00 depending on what dealer sells it to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couple of three questions:

1) How much shorter is this pump than the usual one?

2) Can it be used in a serpentine belt configuration?

3) Is it a normal or reverse direction pump ... and how does that matter?

Thanks,

Ron Earp · 09-17-04, 09:22 AM

Mike, what are you going with, v belt or serpentine? That will help decide what you need. If serpentine, which is the closest, you can use all the bits from an Explorer 5.0L or 94-95 Mustang, or 91-92 Tbird/Cougar V8. Slight variations in each year, so don't mix and match, but these will give you the tightest configurations.

killroy · 09-17-04, 04:16 PM

If you can be patient, you can get a great deal on the explorer setup.

Ford installs those on all of their crate motors, so when some one buys a crate motor to put in their 64-93 Mustang, they take it off and use their old stuff.

I bought a new water pump and timing chain cover that were removed from a crate motor for about $30 on ebay.

It's hard to find a deal like that, but they are out there.

Howard Jones · 09-17-04, 05:20 PM

I'm here in the bay area with you and I have all the above stuff to fit a exployer, pump, cover, even a dampner. Drop me a email if you are interested.

Gary Gibbs · 09-17-04, 09:07 PM

To my knowledge there are two "short" versions of the SB water pump. Both are ~ 1 5/8" shorter. The street rod pump is CW rotation and the 94-95 Mustang water pump is CCW rotation you can use the street rod water pump in v-belt or serpetine (like me with custom grooved pulley).

mike_starling · 09-18-04, 12:02 AM

Guys,

Lots of good info ... thanks. Let me explain a bit further. I told the engine builder that the engine had to be short ... and gave him a dimension. At best he apparently forgot or at worst he ignored my requirement. The engine is built ... and is way too long to fit in my car.

Picture:

As you can see, it has three levels of belts. The first drives the oil pump. The second drives the water pump and a/c compressor. The third drives the alternator.

I'm thinking that I'll need to replace the a/c compressor, the water pump, and some other things like the a/c compressor bracket. I'll have to shorten up the stand-off for the alternator bracket.

If I use an Eplorer water pump ... do I have to replace the timing chain cover?

What other things will I have to do that I don't yet recognize?

Thank you all VERY much!

DC · 09-19-04, 02:58 AM

Mike,

You will also have to use a lower profile rocker cover breather! This one is not going to fit under the 'shelf' unless the engine is very low in the chassis.

Ron Earp · 09-19-04, 07:39 AM

Mike, that water pump that is on there is using a serpentine belt and appears to be short. There won't be any help there. You may have to put a blister in the firewall cover to give relief. That's be the first choice, IMHO. The dizzy and valve covers do look damn tall though.

Bill Bayard · 09-19-04, 08:50 AM

Mike,

The multiple groove pulleys aren't going to help at all.

Can you rig a single belt setup with an idler/adjuster,

instead of the three belts?

Get rid of that front row of pulleys, and you should have

enough room from the front of the engine to the bulkhead

(assuming you have a water pump blister in the bulkhead

panel).

The distributor should be OK, although it's kinda tall.(MSD

makes a shorter version of the Pro Billet)

The valve covers might just make it, but in no way is that

oil breather going to work. Are those tall valve covers

absolutely necessary to clear the rockers?

Good luck getting it in there!

Bill

Ron Earp · 09-19-04, 08:53 AM

Bill is right, maybe go to two levels. There is no reason the alternator should be on its own, use the serpentine you already have to turn it. Move it back an inch or so inline and that would help a lot.

Gary Gibbs · 09-19-04, 10:19 AM

Here is a shot of my custom made serpentine setup mounted in the car. It does not require a bubble on the firewall. It uses a single belt for everything and includes the street rod water pump.

mike_starling · 09-19-04, 10:44 AM

OK Guys,

How do I tell if I already have the short pump (I really can't imagine that, by the way)? Does someone have the dimension from the front face of a head to the outside end of the pump snout?

What I have are flat belts, but not a serpentine set-up. I'd agree that going to two layers of belts is the idea. I hope I have a long pump installed. Changing that might allow putting the oil pump belt outside the other belt. This would put the longest dimension in the place it can be best tolerated.

I believe that a length of 6" to 6 1/2" from the head would be idea. Currently it is at 9" ... way too long and longer than the engine in my Cobra which is (I believe) built with a pretty stock serpentine setup).

Again ... Thanks Fellas!!!!

mike

mike_starling · 09-19-04, 11:47 AM

A little more data. The pump I have is about 5.5" tall from the back where it meets the timing chain cover to approximately the inside of the pulley mounted on its nose.

The distance from the heads to the outside of the first pulley on the nose of the water pump is 8" and to the outside of the second pulley is 9".

Thanks,

Bill Bayard · 09-19-04, 01:14 PM

Mike,

If you mount your A/C below the head, you'll get a ton more room. Also, get an inverted water pump pulley(similar to the March pulley pictured), and work the A/C, alternator, & oil pump to that vertical plane.

The next photo will give you an idea of just how much room you can get with the A/C moved below the head(opposite side).
I can see that you've got some custom brackets, but if they won't work, they aren't THAT custom! I'd try to get a partial refund for the builder's screwup.

Bill

Bill Bayard · 09-19-04, 01:21 PM

Mike,

This front photo shows where my A/C ended up. It's pretty tight to the bulkhead, hoses, etc., but it works fine this way. This would surely give you the 3" that you are looking for, and then some.

Bill

Gary Gibbs · 09-19-04, 01:57 PM

On my setup pictured above the waterpump flange to right hand head (passenger side in US) distance is ~6.5". The farthest point forward of all accessories is the waterpump pulley bolts at 7 1/8" from right head.

killroy · 09-19-04, 07:48 PM

If you use a setup like Gary's, you can use the same timing chain cover with that street rod pump.

If you want to use the explorer pump, it's a reverse rotation pump, so Gary's setup would spin it backwards and you would need the explorer timing chain cover and a serpentine setup that wraps the out side of the belt around the water pump for reverse rotation.

I think Gary and Bill both have nice setups. Gary does have the advantage of only needing to cary one spare belt.

Bill Bayard · 09-19-04, 08:02 PM

Built2,

One belt is nice, but I can break one, and still get home!

I have one A/C belt and one alternator belt, but they BOTH

turn the water pump. Unless by some freak occurance, both

break simultaneously, I'll always have a backup waterpump

belt in place. I can live without A/C and I can go a short

distance without an alternator. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Bill

killroy · 09-19-04, 08:36 PM

So, which one would you drive the oil pump with?

Of course ever setup has a few little advantages, in fact, I think you probably have an easier time adjusting the belt tension than Gary does.

Peter D · 09-20-04, 12:05 AM

Having seen Bill's setup, I'll be changing to a dual-groove water pump pulley. At the moment, I have 2 x V-belts :

- One from crank to w/p to alt
- One from crank to a/c

Having 2 belts passing over the w/p is smart.

I decided on v-belts after having my 89 Vette off the road for about 3 weeks - just for an a/c rebuild ! No a/c on a single serpentine system meant no driving at all - & the joke was that it was in winter, when I didn't even need the a/c !

Kind Regards,

Peter D.