The numbers just in... - Page 2

Sandy · 12-13-05, 04:29 AM

Fran, I'll give them a holler tomorrow and see where it's at. Should be on a truck by now...

Ron - Nice motor, vary nascar-e looking ;-)

Sandy

Gary Gibbs · 12-14-05, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Gary -
Your 427w made about the same hp, but a crazy amount more torque. I thought about it for a while (big cube motor) but I love the windy 331 high compression engine that is in my mustang and figured it would work even better (if built by KCR) in a 800lb lighter car [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Sandy

[/ QUOTE ]
That makes sense. I would guess the heads flow similar numbers. Basically airflow makes power and the big displacement engine makes the "same" HP low because that is where it flows the CFM. The smaller displacement motor will turn more RPM to get the same CFM and thus power. Looks like a great combo you have. And it is all a mater of personal taste. My motor is limited to ~6500 RPM becuase of the HR cam (maybe 7000 RPM max due to long stroke and thus piston speeds). With that crank and rod combo I would guess your motor would be ok to 8500 RPM or more.

Sandy · 12-14-05, 03:07 PM

Ron - Now that I look at your motor, it looks a little sad... sad that it is in the corner all by itself, needs Mr. Gearbox and Mrs. Fuel Cell to keep him company [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Gary - yes, it is how much air your engine can pump! I had KCR ensure that I could run reasonably far past the peak power point at 7400, I was told the motor start to fall off about 8000-8200 which was my target for the gears that I chose in the 930 box.

Sandy

Sandy · 12-15-05, 01:23 AM

Got the Sheets from KCR, the funny thing is that they didn't send data from below 6000rpm and the final run starts at 6400, I'll have to see if they have it but didn't bother to send that range. The sent 3 sheets each with a bit of a different tune, so I'll only post the last one. The interesting thing is that they moved peak power around a bit but doesn't say if it was jetting or timing. All number truncated to whole numbers. It looks like this run has the A/F ratio a bit richer on the top end that one of the other run shows at 8000rpm Hp still at 600 and Tq at 394.

RPM HP TQ
6400 591 485
6500 593 479
6600 597 475
6700 601 471
6800 603 466
6900 607 462
7000 612 459
7100 613 454
7200 616 449
7300 617 444
7400 617 438
7500 618 432
7600 615 425
7700 611 417
7800 603 406
7900 594 395
8000 593 389
8100 595 385
8200 586 375

Sandy · 12-15-05, 02:12 PM

Chatted with KCR and their dyno software only starts to track the numbers starting at peak TQ. Seems odd, I'll bet it is just some software set up they have not done correctly...

Sandy

Paul Thompson 'Hooligan' · 12-15-05, 08:04 PM

Holy hell Sandy!!

BIG NUMBERS...!!!

Sandy · 12-15-05, 09:10 PM

Paul, I'll get you the cam card ;-)

Mike · 12-16-05, 10:09 PM

Sounds awesome. I'm curious, what kind of transmission are you going to bolt on that monster?
Mike G.

Russ Noble · 12-17-05, 01:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what kind of transmission are you going to bolt on that monster?

[/ QUOTE ]

A modified 930, read the whole thread (it's not that long) for further details!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

Gary Gibbs · 12-19-05, 01:27 AM

Sandy
Agree great numbers. Did they do any head work or are they stock? Any flow data. I am just curious how they stack up th the AFR 225's sence we are at about the same power.

Gary

Gary Gibbs · 12-19-05, 02:18 AM

Here is a few plots that I find interesting and show the difference in HP/TQ using Sandy's test data and test data from my KC built 427W. First the torque of each:

Gary Gibbs · 12-19-05, 02:19 AM

Next the HP:

Gary Gibbs · 12-19-05, 02:24 AM

You need to click on the "Attachment" word on the top of the post to get reasonable pictures.

Now if we take the tranaxle gearing that I have and make it shorter by increasing the final drive from 3.22 to 3.96. One might want to do this because of the lower tq and higher RPM capability of Sandy's motor. Note the 3.96 comes from the ratio of displacements of the two motors 3.22*427/347. Now let us look at the torque applied to the rear wheels (neglecting drive train losses, etc) as a function of vehicle speed (Gary 427 is solid line and Sandy 347 is '*') Each of the gears 1 through 5 are represented by different curves and the entire test span of data is plotted appropriately as vehicle speed:

Gary Gibbs · 12-19-05, 02:29 AM

Wish we had data for Sandy at lower RPM to fill in the curves, etc. Now the interesting question (for me anyway) is: To a first order can the wheels tell the difference?

Russ Noble · 12-19-05, 06:37 AM

Exactly!

Excellent and interesting analysis Gary. As you say pity the heads weren't the same but obviously both combinations of head and cam must be moving a similar amount of air.

The interesting thing for me is which (using the adjusted gearing and assuming weights and all else to be equal) would be the easiest to drive on the road and which the easiest to drive on the track and which would be fastest on the track?

Also how do the cams compare? The 427 presumably has a relatively lazy cam compared to the 347? Yes/no? Or is it similar, but just tamed by the cubes?

Regards

Gary Gibbs · 12-19-05, 10:53 AM

Mine is a milder hyd. roller.

Cam is a Trick Flow hyd roller, TFS-51402002

Description from their site (note the description is more accurate if installed in a 302 not 427. Mine definately does not have a rough idle):
Rough idle, strong top-end power. 3,000 to 3,500 rpm stall converter with 3.90 to 4.11 gears recommended. Compression ratio: 10.0:1 to 11.5:1.

Duration at 0.050": 236 intake/248 exhaust

Cam Lift: .359"/.372"

Valve Lift: .574"/.595"
LCA: 110

Sandy's shown earlier is:
Lift .694"IN .673"EX

Duration at 0.050" 265In 270Ex
Duration at 0.020" 298In 306Ex

Lobe Sep 106

Sandy · 12-19-05, 12:52 PM

No flow number on the heads, they were CNC ported with the SMALL ports as indicated on the build sheets (probabally closer to stock Victor flow number). I would say the Victors's do flow a lot more on the intakes then the AFR's, and a bit more on the ex. Really depends on how much work was really done to them. The cubes definitly tame the cam, the 80cu's make it smooth and more streetable. I would have liked also to have the all the numbers below peak tq.

Gary what intake and size carb are your running? Also the engine was run on the dyno with 2" headers

I'm happy with the numbers that KCR came up with, but I have seen some articles with 302's breaking into the 600's (Like one from Total Engine Airflow's 302 project). I expected a bit more hp, but can't really be too sad ;-)

Another interesting question is how does the internal rotating mass affect the ultimate acceleration of the car, from the engine perspective that is? The folks at KCR mentioned that the motor had 'crazy' response. Not sure how to quantify that at all.

For the 930, as I recall the gears were like this -

4:22 Final
2.25 1st
1.30 2nd
1.00 3rd
0.83 4th

Gary, very interesting in all!

Sandy

Gary Gibbs · 12-19-05, 05:47 PM

Victor Jr. Intake and Race Demon 825 CFM (Road Race version with removable sleeves).

I will plug your gears into the plot tonight.

Gary Gibbs · 12-19-05, 07:07 PM

With 930 gears:

Sandy · 12-19-05, 10:21 PM

Interesting, the curves (if all the numbers were had) looks like it might be a bit smoother. But overall not much different (except for potentially the missing parts).

The 427 might be excellent with the stock 930 3rd/4th gears at .923 and .750 respectivly.

We need the BIG motor vs small motor shoot out, would be very interesting to see how it all would work.

The manifold on the KCR 347 is a regular Victor which is supposidly (sp) better for fuel distro then the Jr. I have one also on my mustang, it is fully ported and possibly too big for the 331 it tops off.

The TWM EFI will be interesting to see how that shakes out. I really am going to have to get the car on the rollers (after it's completed that is) just to get a baseline.

And finally I have one more motor going together for the mustang. I am about a month away from putting that together myself. Will use the same cam as the 347, but will be a 331 cu with the Canfields that I have (with flow #'s!) unported Victor and 850 holley. So will see how well I end up with that one when all said and done.

Lots of fun stuff, just need the time to finish off the projects...

Sandy