Triumph/Rover 3.5L V8 EFI Harness/ECU

Ron Earp · 05-06-06, 09:36 PM

A little "un GT40 related", but a question sort of directed at our UK friends.

My friend Jeff races, rather successfully I must say, a TR8 here in the states in SCCA Club racing. We are restricted to "stock" parts, but can take our pick from parts offered from the factory.

Right now the TR8 wears a horribly twisted carb intake that has two Stromberg 175 carbs. It works, but we know it is costing us power. We recently got a stock Triumph 3.5L V8 upper and lower manifold and it is much better with respect to the ports. We suspect it would make more power too.

One nice thing about the series we race in is while we must use stock parts some things are free - like the ECU. We must use the stock wiring harness but it could go to a Motec ECU for example.

What we'd really like to have, or what we are looking for, is a complete EFI setup for one of these cars. Or, a complete wiring harness would allow me to do what we wish to do, which is use the upper and lower intake and drive the thing with a Megasquirt ECU.

Does anyone on the forum have some contacts or know where we might get a harness? Like I said, we have an upper and lower we bought off Ebay from England, but need a harness. I know it is popular for 3.5L guys to chuck the EFI and run a 4bbl carb, so maybe someone knows of some cast off parts we could score. We just missed a COMPLETE EFI setup on Ebay here in the US for $380, for some reason my high bid was not taken and we lost out. So, we're looking again.

Thanks for any help,
Ron

Ian Anderson · 05-07-06, 05:59 PM

Ron

Not true it is related!(Perhaos the poor relations)

I have this system in my Dax.

a couple of things you may be inerested in the Rover V8 forum
http://www.v-8.org.uk/forum/

And also THE OIL PUMP DOES NOT SELF PRIME
It needs to be back filled after a rebuild and then it should work.

The EFI setup you are wanting is probably that from a Range Rover from 1990 onwards. come in 2 types - hotwire and flapper - depending on who you speak to gives differing opinions on what is best. Hotwire is said to be almost un killable. The units are batch fired not sequentially.

http://www.rpiv8.com/homepage.htm
Is a source of parts but can be pricy but their web site give a fair amount of good advice.

The V8 Rover engines sere also used in the TVR so again a source for some hotter parts.

Hope i helps

Cheers
ian

Daniel Jones · 05-08-06, 02:15 PM

> We recently got a stock Triumph 3.5L V8 upper and lower manifold and it is
> much better with respect to the ports. We suspect it would make more power
> too.

Are you restricted to the TR8 "federal" injection manifolds or can you use
the Range Rover set-up? Can you run parts raced by TR8's back in the day
(things like Huffaker intake manifolds or the side draft injection that
the Group 44 TR8 ran)? There were a couple of Range Rover set-ups. The
later version had long runners unsuitable for Jeff's application. You want
the earlier version:

http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/album13?page=4

Notice the GT40 like lower intake manifold with separate stacks and plenum.
You can trim the length or change the diameter of the stacks to alter the
tuning. The throttle body is built into the upper plenum and is around
62-63 mm in diameter which is larger than a stock Ford 5.0L throttle body.
Depending upon how much power he plans on making, it should be sufficient
for a 3.5L V8. However, when Rover went racing with the Rover 3500
SD1 sedans in the 1980's they used a dual trhrottle body version of this
intake. They are rare but a guy on the Wedge list had one for sale a while
back.

I sold the one in the pictures above last weekend but they are readily
available.

> Like I said, we have an upper and lower we bought off Ebay from England,
> but need a harness.

Only a very few TR8's were sold in England and those were equipped with
carbs. The fuel injected TR8's were U.S. models. The Rover sedan had a
similar intake set-up here in the states and perhaps in the UK but the
race Rover sedans had an intake similar to the Range Rover. Does the
manifold set you have look like the one I pictured or does it have a flat
upper plenum?

> Does anyone on the forum have some contacts or know where we might get a
> harness?

You might want to try Woody Cooper at the Wedge Shop:

The Wedge Shop
Woody Cooper
(508) 880-5448
http://www.thewedgeshop.com
Email- Wedgeshop@aol.com
scmtr8@aol.com
111 Dean St.
Taunton,MA 02780

or Ted at TSI:

Ted Schumacher
TS Imported Automotive
404 Bassinger Rd.
Pandora, Ohio 45877
(800)543-6648 Orders
(419)384-3022 Tech/Fax

Also, the TR7/TR8 email list at:

tr8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu

Can you run a single plane intake with a throttle body? Depending upon his
power level, even the Range Rover intake may be restrictive on the top end,
due to the overall runner length. The Rover 3.9L EFI has ports that are
1 1/2" tall by 15/16" wide. Though it looks like two different stacks are
used, the overall runner length is the same - 10.5" (plus 4.5" for the
cylinder head runner). The short stacks are paired with long runners and
vice versa. The bellmouth ID is 1.48". A larger diameter stack, one slightly
larger than the intake valve (stock Rover intake valves are a bit larger than
1.5").

The Huffaker single plane intake was made by Joe Huffaker for the Triumph
TR8 race program. Given the fact the Huffaker ports are perfect match for
a stock Buick 300 head, I've always suspected the Rover racers running the
Huffaker intake were also running 1964 Buick 300 aluminum heads. A shot
showing the ports of a Huffaker single plane intake next to the 300 heads:

http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/alb...Huffaker_ports

The Buick 300 head is a much better starting point if you plan to port.
Here's a comparison shot of the Buick 300 and Rover intake ports:

http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/alb...r_Intake_Ports

You can see the ports are larger to start with and even ported leave plenty of
material for gasket sealing. The Stage 1 Buick V6 valves are as large as you
can go in these heads without offsetting the guides:

http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/alb...ng_chambers_01

The tulip exhaust valve head helps the low and mid lift numbers quite a bit.
Some close-up shots of the port work on my heads:

http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/alb...e_port_closeup
http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/alb...t_port_closeup
http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/alb...hamber_closeup

Dan Jones

Simon H · 05-09-06, 04:45 AM

Hi Ron

I have now installed a TVR 4.5 chimera engine in my KVA and purchased all the parts from Bellhill garage in the uk. (www.bellhillgarage.co.uk) 01373 834252. They have most bits such as ecu's etc etc. They are all very helpful guys and may have some parts you want. I hope this helps.

I have been watching Ians dax build thread with great interest, but I am a bit upset!. You are now way ahead of me in finishing your GT Ian!!. The progress you have made is quite amazing. I really must pull my finger out and catch up.

Regards

Simon

Jeff Young · 05-09-06, 11:11 AM

To answer a few of your questions:

1. Have to run the TR8 Federal injection system. It is the flat top plenum (to clear the hood).

2. I could probably get away with the twin plenum from the SD1 Vitesse, no one would know, but it would be cheating.

3. Can't run the Buick 300 heads, although everyone agrees those are teh best "early" heads for the 3.5/3.9 (before Wildcat and others started doing their own castings).

Woody is a great resource; he built one of my short blocks. I'll start there.

Thanks guys.

Jeff

Daniel Jones · 05-09-06, 12:13 PM

> 1. Have to run the TR8 Federal injection system. It is the flat top plenum
> (to clear the hood).
> 2. I could probably get away with the twin plenum from the SD1 Vitesse, no
> one would know, but it would be cheating.

Both the twin plenum Vitesse and single plenum Range Rover intake will clear
the stock TR8 hood. I think I have some information on a fairly healthy
TR8 (or was it an MGBV8?) that ran the TR8 Federal intake set-up. I'll see
what I can dig up.

If you are still running the stock TR8 oil pan, you might want to remove
the extension that goes from the pan to the bellhousing. Ted at TSI ran
TR8's in showroom stock and said it would eventually crack the oil pan.

> 3. Can't run the Buick 300 heads, although everyone agrees those are the best
> "early" heads for the 3.5/3.9 (before Wildcat and others started doing their
> own castings).

I'm pleased with the flow bench results on mine. The exhaust to intake
flow ratio is good and the low and mid-lift numbers are excellent. These
heads are destined for my street TR8. It was important to leave adequate
wall thickness so we didn't go crazy on the port job but the results are
quite good for such a small valve head and should support my HP goals.

Valve Buick 300 Exh/Int
Lift 1964 ratio
(inch) aluminum (%)
ported
Int Exh
1.775" 1.5"

0.100...66....47....71.2
0.150...99....82....82.8
0.200..129...104....80.6
0.250..155...119....76.8
0.300..174...130....74.7
0.350..187...139....74.3
0.400..191...146....76.4
0.450..194...150....77.3
0.500..196...152....77.6
0.550..200...153....76.5
0.600..200...153....76.5

Flow numbers were taken on a Superflow bench at 28" H2O with a clayed intake
radius but no exhaust pipe. Heads were ported by Jon Carls of JDC Engineering
in Minonk, IL. 6000 Series Ferrea Buick V6 Stage 1 valves were used. Intake
valves are part number F6238 (1.775" head diameter, 11/32" stem, 4.735" long
with a 0.271" tip). Exhausts are part number F6237 (1.5" head diameter, 11/32"
stem, 4.735" long with a 0.254" tip). Intake head shape is a 10 degree Super
Flo. Exhaust is a 29 degree tulip. Ferreas 6000 Series valves are competition
parts suitable for solid roller cams. The larger valves required larger seats,
p/n 30903 for the intake and p/n 30647 for the exhaust.

I'm doing a stroker Rover/Buick V8 for my TR8:

http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/dan-tr8

Should be around 294 cubes:

ported Buick 300 aluminum heads (being ported)
adjustable roller rocker set-up (new shafts, Harland Sharp rocker arms)
Rover 4.0L cross-bolted block (align-bored to take to Buick 300 bearings)
Rover/Buick forged rods with ARP bolts (or possibly SCAT SBC I beam rods)
aluminum flywheel
mini-starter
TR8 oil pan and scraper
Willpower single plane intake with EFI bungs
large tube TR8 headers

> Woody is a great resource; he built one of my short blocks. I'll start there.

I'm getting ready to purchase a set of 15" Compomotive rims from Woody.
Need to get rid of those dinky 13" rims so I can mount some decent rubber.
Woody also has a 12" Wilwood front brake package for the TR8 that I plan
to install, along with a narrowed Ford 8.8" disc brake rear with limited
slip.

If you're interested, I'd like to discuss suspension and other TR8-related
topics with you some time.

Thanks,
Dan Jones

P.S. There are some Buick/Rover images and info at:

http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/album10

that you might be interested in looking at, including a set of radical welded
and ported Rover heads, a lengthy article on racing Buick/Olds 215's including
the Mickey Thompson Indy effort and Lance Reventlow's Scarab, etc.

Ian Anderson · 05-09-06, 12:31 PM

TVR uses the same blocks

A company in the UK called Urbanhurst mahines and assembles them for TVR

http://domain816481.sites.fasthosts.com/index.html

Possibly cut our some middlemen!

Ian

Jeff Young · 05-10-06, 01:35 PM

My e-mail is youngj@mvalaw.com. Shoot me a note and let's talk. TR8s are naturally very good handlers because of the low CG, and the wide stance of the car. They do have some issues. The short wheel base makes them a bit twitchy, but overall grip is very high in my race car (and I have to stay with struts up front and live axle/trailing arms in the rear).

thanks for the all the info.

Jef

Jeff Young · 05-10-06, 01:36 PM

My e-mail is youngj@mvalaw.com. Shoot me a note and let's talk. TR8s are naturally very good handlers because of the low CG, and the wide stance of the car. They do have some issues. The short wheel base makes them a bit twitchy, but overall grip is very high in my race car (and I have to stay with struts up front and live axle/trailing arms in the rear).

thanks for the all the info.

Jef