Nfg!!

Chris_K · 11-16-06, 08:44 PM

So I recently purchased an XB3 long block and an Edelbrock EFI to provide the motivation for my car. I'm pretty excited about that and I think it'll be a great combination once it gets going, except something rather bad happened and I'd like to hear from you guys before I hear back from the dealer.

Here's the scoop. I bought the gasket set, the sealers & adhesives, the bolt kit and everything else. I gooped up the surfaces, set the gaskets on them, and rather accurately placed the manifold on them- virtually spot on so no goop squished out.

I started setting in the bolts. I put them all in hand tight and there were no issues. I got the socket set out and snugged them down. Again, no issues. I got the torque wrench out and started to bring them into spec (15-18 ft/lbs). On the bolt between 7 & 8, I got no where near the limit and there was a muffled "pop"- coupled with a lack of resistance turning the bolt and a sinking feeling in my gut

. After I joked to myself that everything seemed to be going to easily and muttering a few words I shouldn't type here

, I resigned myself to trashing the gasket set to see what just happened with that bolt as it simply felt bad

.

Off with the bolts, off with the manifold, peel back the gaskets and behind door number three is the cast-in boss between intake runners 7 & 8 that had been machined, drilled and tapped but was now in three pieces. It appears that there was some sort of casting flaw in the boss and as the bolt pulled tension on the threads it must have pulled hard enough (seriously- it wasn't that tight) to have it separate.

So why am I airing my dirty laundry for all to read? I am dealing with Anthem Motors outside of Phoenix. They have a call in to FMS to see what they'll do for me. I am soliciting opinions as to what would be an appropriate remedy to the situation. I want to have a thoughtful proposal in case they don't tell me what I want to hear.

I am thinking it'll need a new head. It seems as though it pulled enough of the thread out that I wouldn't want to try to thread into the remaining bore. I am under the assumption that welding up the boss and re-machining could possibly compromise the other machined surfaces and their alignments and I don't want that to be plaguing me for the life of the motor. So it was basically I want a new head (installed) or even just swap them for a new one (long block that is) and they can take care of fixing the other one on their own schedule.

So, are there things I am missing? Options I am overlooking? I don't know how much deeper the threads go so I don't know if a longer bolt is truly an option and the fact that the casting failed in that area already doesn't lead me to want to pursue that option. That was really about the only other one I could think of. Anyone think of anything?

Also, I just wanted to vent without blowing up and I figure someone out there has had something similar happen. Hopefully FMS will do good by me and sort it out. I'm off for a week of climbing now but I am hoping for some good news when I get back though.

Frustratedly,
Chris

Another view

Jac Mac · 11-16-06, 10:14 PM

Hi Chris,

While the casting does look a bit suspect, I think there would be nothing wrong with drilling the boss clear thru , tapping and using a longer bolt. In fact it may pay to verify that all the bolts are long enough for that particular application, along with checking that there was no sealant or foreign material in that hole if it was blind that may have caused the bolt to hydraulic.

That said if the casting is indeed faulty you should be entitled to a new cyl head at least, and if your long block came with heads fitted then it would be common sense to do a long block swap as you suggest, trouble with that is common sense is a rare commodity these days.

Jac Mac

David Briggs · 11-16-06, 10:28 PM

Looks like your bolts may be too short. ARP makes a stud kit for the intake that is much better than using bolts.

Trevor Booth · 11-17-06, 03:25 AM

Get a metallurgist to have a look a the break if they say casting not faulty.
If casting not faulty it certinly appears that the bolts may be too short.

Bernard · 11-17-06, 07:57 AM

Hi Chris
I agree obviously with the previous pertinent answers but we have also to note that the casting is not very nice. According to the picture the thread looks like it was moved forward of the center. It means that one edge is too skinny that weaken the thread. Furethermore, the casting structure at the broken area looks with a large "grain" (not sur about the translation), that is a characteristic of an inconsistent alloy structure (can be the result of somme unexpected pieces of sand). Last point, when you tight bolts or nuts with a torque wrench don't forget to put little grease, oil or anti seize on the bolt threads and on the washer faces

Chris_K · 11-17-06, 08:08 AM

Thanks for the comments so far. For the next go around, I will get the stud kit. Upon reflection the bolts do seem like they should be longer, but in all fairness I was using the bolt kit from Edelbrock which they specified in their install instructions.

Regarding hydraulicing the bore, there was very little torque applied during this episode. I got no feedback indicating there was something going awry. The bolt was snugged up, I switched to the torque wrench, and pop it went nowhere near final torque (15 ft-lbs).

I did have a small application of anti-sieze on the end of the bolt for it to thread in, but that was the only bit of foreign substance in the bore.

I agree with the observation about the grain structure though. Isn't consistent with a properly processed casting.

I'll post next week what transpires after I'm back from vacation. Happy Thanksgiving!

Chris

Keith Hardy · 11-17-06, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckouba

Regarding hydraulicing the bore, there was very little torque applied during this episode. I got no feedback indicating there was something going awry.

Chris

That's hydraulics for you.....

**Chris K** · 11-17-06, 11:48 AM

I agree that there may well have been a fault in the casting, but in retrospect and to be helpfull in the future it has been suggested that a torque wrench not to be used on the intake bolts. Tighten by hand, let set and retighten by hand, warm up the engine and retighten again (by hand).
If using alluminum heads let cool for a half an hour and re-tighten. I only mention this as I have buggered intake bolts, epecially easy to do on the rear corner bolts by not having a good feel on them.

Chris K
(the other one

Sandy · 11-17-06, 01:48 PM

Get the studs kit from ARP next go round', and sorry you had some problems, that kind of thing really sucks.

The studs are helpful in installing mainfolds on the SBF as you can drop them on really easy, keep gaskets aligned etc. For Aluminum heads something that I have done to all my motors since I am an over torque-er. I did get a SMALL torque wrench, but as other have said, hand tight and check after running.

Sandy

Ian Anderson · 11-17-06, 01:49 PM

How mant threads were engaged when tiy had the bolts "home"

Ian

StuartB · 11-17-06, 07:17 PM

Hi Chris,
I think the issue will be "the bolt kit and everything else".
Who was this bolt kit supplied by and was it one that was recommended or sold to you by the people that sold you the long block or the manifold?
It does look as though you needed longer bolts to spread the load further into the threads in the alloy heads and if the bolt kit was sold by the long block supplier I would have though this would be down to them .
So lets assume that bolt length was the reason for the failure, in a UK court this would come down to "duty of care", let me give you a senario, simply from a legal view point.
If I were the supplier of your long block I should have known that the heads on the block I've sold you will fail if standard length manifold bolts are used (if this is the case, so for the sake of this senario lets say that it appears it that it is).
Now if I sold you these standard length bolts and they tore the threads out/broke the casting of the heads I'd also sold you it would be down to me to sort this FOC as I would have a "duty of care" to you, my customer, in that I should know better than to sell you parts that are going to cause damage or fail when you try to fit or run them (in conjuction with the parts I know you've purchased for this build).
Where it gets complex is if (in this senario) I was under the impression that you were going to fit (for arguements sake) an iron manifold (or one that has thinner bolt surfaces than the aluminium Edelbrock manifold) and the standard bolts would have been fine.
So if we assume that there's not a casting fault and this is a genuine "you don't want to use them on that mate" kind of thing, it's going to come down to who sold you what, and if they knew the combination you were intending to use would be likely to cause damage or fail upon instalation.
At the end of the day if the long block, manifold and bolts all came from totaly different suppliers you'll find none of them can be held legaly responsible as none would have a duty of care to you the customer (in regard to this build combination) and the failure is down to you.
They would all be able to state in a court of law that they are simply "a sales outlet" and had know idea (or record of a discussion on) what combination you were building and could therefore have not have been in a possition to advise you either way, or be held legaly responisible for any failings.
But, if all parts came from the same supplier you're almost home and dry, unless they can show that they deal with so many customers that they couldn't possibly be expected to keep track of what all the customers are purchasing, this refers to the likes of Summit and Jegs.

Howard Jones · 11-17-06, 11:45 PM

I would try to get them to give you a new head. If not then I see 4 maybe 5 threads gone. I would be willing to try and clean up the mess, save as many threads as possible, and install studs all around. If you can get 5/8 of an inch of threads or more I think it will be fine. Maybe even as little as 1/2 inch will work. Then hand tighten nuts.

I saw some studs somewhere that have sockets it the ends of them. They are meant for installing them without back to back nuts but they will also allow you to stabilise the stud with a Allen wrench while you tighten the nut down. If you are careful with this I bet you can pull it off without an expensive fix.

I will add that Ford Ali heads will NOT stand up to a 3/8 drive torque wrench. I use a 6 inch long 3/8 drive socket wrench and take it VERY easy. I also use gasket adhesive on both sides of the gasket. I like the red stuff from Mr Gasket. The stuff that comes in a small steel can with the top that has the bush attached to it. It, the brush, looks like a ball of cotton but its man-made.

This stuff cleans right off with carb cleaner so you will be able to take it apart later. Nice light coat, easy with amount, more isn't better.

This looks to me like it will turn out alright. It's just the type of thing that will make a perfectionist crazy. Don't let it get you down.

Howard Jones · 11-17-06, 11:47 PM

I would try to get them to give you a new head. If not then I see 4 maybe 5 threads gone. I would be willing to try and clean up the mess, save as many threads as possible, and install studs all around. If you can get 5/8 of an inch of threads or more I think it will be fine. Maybe even as little as 1/2 inch will work. Then hand tighten nuts.

I saw some studs somewhere that have allen sockets in the ends of them. They are meant for installing them without back to back nuts but they will also allow you to stabilise the stud with a Allen wrench while you tighten the nut down. If you are careful with this I bet you can pull it off without an expensive fix.

I will add that Ford Ali heads will NOT stand up to a 3/8 drive torque wrench. I use a 6 inch long 3/8 drive socket wrench and take it VERY easy. I would guess that I am putting no more than 10 Lbs of torque on them. I also use gasket adhesive on both sides of the gasket. I like the red stuff from Mr Gasket. The stuff that comes in a small steel can with the top that has the bush attached to it. It, the brush, looks like a ball of cotton but its man-made.

This stuff cleans right off with carb cleaner so you will be able to take it apart later. Nice light coat, easy with amount, more isn't better.

This looks to me like it will turn out alright. It's just the type of thing that will make a perfectionist crazy. Don't let it get you down.

CliffBeer · 11-18-06, 03:24 AM

Looks to me as if there was a basic casting flaw. Even if your bolts were too short, this kind of failure should not have resulted, rather, the boss should have stayed intact and the threads only should strip. I would think the picture alone gives reason enough to call upon the supplier to replace.

As stated elsewhere above, common sense would suggest the supplier replace this for you, however, common sense can be surprisingly hard to find in many places...

Bernard · 11-18-06, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffBeer

.... Even if your bolts were too short, this kind of failure should not have resulted, rather, the boss should have stayed intact and the threads only should strip....

I fully agree with you Cliff, it is the stronger argument

Howard Jones · 11-19-06, 10:56 PM

It looks to me like the bolt only went in about 5 threads. At that depth you only had a grip on the portion of casting that was up above the meat of the head. As the bolt pulled on the threads it pulled off the thin top of the casting. I think that all the strength of these center bolt holes are down deep into the head. A long bolt that extends down into the bottom of the hole, leaving just enough depth not to bottom would not have pulled the head off the bolt hole.

If you can't get them to give you a new head, try to save it. All the strength of those center holes are down deeper into the head anyway. I would, and I bet it will work fine. Hand tight with a short 6" wrench. Then again after you run it a couple of hours.

Ian Anderson · 11-20-06, 04:17 AM

Howard

Yes and no

the stresses in a threaded application are concentrated more at the top thread and reduce the further down the thread you go.

The picture was also said to be too general for him to give any opinion on the quality of the castings. And he did recomend going back to Ford for a replacement.

(From a metalurgist that specialises in fatigue stresses/failures with some pedigree as he took on ZF on some bad points on their box that failed on Mirages and won! (He won't pen an article yet but I'm still working on him!))

Ian

Howard Jones · 11-20-06, 11:25 AM

Ian, Well again I have learned something. It's amazing the level of competence of the members of this forum. What do you think about the usefulness of the remaining threads if he can't get a new head. I would like to know what the group thinks about continued use of this head in that even. Of course a new head is the best way to go but many of us are on limited budgets and if it would work then unfortunately many people would have to live with it, at least in the short term.

If you don't ask questions of people more knowledgeable than yourself you will never learn anything.