Help with engine choice.

[Simon]

Alright Lads, i've been on this forum for a few months now and i've just put my order in with Fran, now i've got to pick out my engine.

I'm going to use T & L engines:
eBay Store - T L Engine Development: Ford Strokers: 351w Ford 427 Stroker Turnkey Crate Engine NASCAR Shop

as my supplier as you seem to get a lot of motor for your money with them, the question is which one. After looking at their ebay shop i've narrowed it down to a couple of choices...

1. An ott 351w stroker with Webber carbs knocking out 500hp with similar torque. Has hydraulic lifters. Ahh, Webers, what else needs to be said...

2. An insane, Holley carbed, 302 stroker of 370cid pushing out 600hp. Not sure of the tq on this one. This has Solid lifters...adds a great sound, yes ?

Yes, i know, the power of both of these engines is more than enough and after speaking to Fran he feels that their 440hp 444tq Weber 427 is a good choice, but c'mon where's the pub currency in those figures (No offence to anyone who's gone for this engine or to you, Fran if you're reading this )

Just looking for some feedback on what you think of these options and if there's anything i should be aware of, apart from keeping a gentle right foot I'll be going for either a ZF or Porsche trans.

I'm only planning on doing this kind project once, so may as well over do it i say.

Simon

[Steve26]

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks if what your looking for is "pub currency" you should get whatever makes you feel the biggest strongest...

Steve

[Simon]

Thanks Steve, but the pub currency was said slightly tongue in cheek.
What do you have in yours ?

[chuck smith]

I would suggest the 351 based motor, I suspect it will be more tractable in every day driving than the maxed out 302

[Doug Sainlar]

Originally Posted by chuck 1

I would suggest the 351 based motor, I suspect it will be more tractable in every day driving than the maxed out 302

Good point, Chuck--just as I was readying to suggest the 302. I guess I would go for the smaller motor b/c of the weight savings. In a car of this sort, which weighs slightly over 2,200 pounds in finished form, a couple of hundred pounds can make a significant difference.

Lower vehicle weight, higher power--it's a tough choice, to be sure, and I've often said there is no replacement for displacement, but in this case, I just might go for the smaller, higher hp motor and plan on learning how to launch it w/o stalling it. Perhaps a multi disc clutch setup???

Why??? I just LOVE the sound of a solid lifter equipped, high winding SBF!!!!! For me, that's the music of life!!

Doug

[Simon]

Cheers for your input guys, both very valid. There's an ally block option on both of these at a mucho increased $$$ of course. With you on the solid lifters Doug, i would have to adjust the valve lash every now and then, but that's part of the fun of owning something like this.

[MReid]

I went with just that. A bored and stroked 302 (347) with dual Holley HP carbs and a solid lifter croller cam. With 180 degree headers, you just can't beat the sweet music! Setting the lash is all part of the fun.

[Simon]

What's your motor putting out MR and how does she drive...do you need to keep the tacho dancing to make progress ?

[Tony Hunt]

Simon,
Depends what you are planning to use the car for.
If it's to be an out-and-out track car, go for whatever numbers light your tyres.
But.... if you plan to use the car on the road at all, imagine yourself on a wet night, coming back from somewhere. You're tired, there are weekend motorists all around you - 350bhp would be an embarassment.

Tony Hunt

[Simon]

LOL - nice one Tony - a good point well made .
I plan to use the car for 2 or 3 trackdays a year, Snetterton is not far away with it's loooooooong straights. Other than that it's something to pull the dust cover off of on a sunny day and tear s*** up with. This sort of choice is always going to be a battle between heart and head and i've have a history of heartmade decisions - Segway anyone ? it's going cheap...

[Dutton]

Simon -

If I remember correctly, the small block 351 is a bit taller than the 302, so it might be worth giving some thought to the exhaust side of the equation. If Fran is not able at the moment to supply you with headers to fit your 'tall' engine, no doubt they'll have to come from somewhere (if by chance you're one of the talented few who can make that happen in your garage, I salute you my friend).

For what it's worth, I just had a 331 built (stroked 302). Equipped with IDFs it puts out 435 hp, 450 torque. Honestly I was hoping to clear 500 with it but there's no doubt that the car, when finished, will move quite nicely. Fran supplied the exhaust.

As for the horsepower numbers, plan on the Webers making about 15 percent less than the same engine with a carburetor. Are the Webers worth that 15 percent? Only you can answer that one...

I look forward to the day when the car is finished and I've had the opportunity to clear out the pipes now and then. On the rare occasion when asked how much horsepower it makes, I'm sure the response will be something like "more than enough to scare me..."

Have fun with your car. Looking forward to watching your build!

Best,

T.

[Simon]

Thanks for your thoughts T. Do i haves the fabrication skills to make an exhaust ? - i wish ! I'll actually be having the headers made here in the UK by Simpson racing so deck size is not a concern.
Just take a look at these tubes:







I've read that webers can be a bottleneck, but as you point out it's worth making the sacrifice for that look. I understand the induction noise these make also adds to the whole package so bonus points there as well.

As for documenting mine as i go, i'm not sure i want to put myself under that pressure, but that may change if i feel things are going well.

Good luck on your continuing build.

Simon

[MReid]

Standard Ford deck height on a 302 is 8.2 inches and on a 351w is 9.5 inches. On a 90 degree V8 like the SBF, that moves the exhaust ports 1.82 inches farther apart.

Simon, my engine should put out about 500 HP, but has not gone to dyno for fine tuning and final numbers, yet. I'll post results when that happens. I am running AFR 185 ported heads (standard exhaust port locations) and the following solid roller cam specs:

Duration (.050): intake: 243 exhaust: 243
Lift (1.6 rocker): intake: .586 exhaust: .586
lobe separation: 110

Jesel roller rockers, with a stud girdle, crank scraper, and windage tray on the bottom end. Of course, I'm still waiting for my car from Fran, but any day now!

[Simon]

Lucky you on the imminent arrival of your 40, my wait as just started...

[chuck smith]

A 400-450 hp 347 or 331 is a long way fron a 370 600hp motor. The 370 would have to be maxed out in every way to produce and live for any length of time with 600hp

[Simon]

Hi Chuck, the (main) specs for the 370 are:

1. 3.400 4340 Forged steel crankshaft
2. 4340 Forged H-beam rods
3. JE or Mahle Forged pistons
4. Moly file fit rings
5. New DART 302 block painted color of your choice
6. Dura-bond cam bearings
7. T&L custom grind solid roller camshaft
8. True double roller timing setup
9. Custom gasket set
10. Professional products balancer
11. Melling high volume oil pump
12. Melling oil pump drive shaft
13. Melling oil pump pickup
14. Hydraulic roller lifter
15. Ported Dart Pro 1 or Edelbrock aluminum heads
16. Jesel shaft mounted roller rockers
17. Comp push rods
18. Ported Edelbrock Victor JR manifold
19. ARP head bolts

I'm new to all this, but i don't think this is low grade stuff. A 1yr 12,000 warranty is offered, not that that is much use to me in the UK, but it's a sign of their faith in the product.

[Bill Musarra]

Simon,
I am no expert on these matters, but here are my thoughts on this. If you go for the smaller engine, you may be asking for a lot of trouble if you plan on only a few track days a year. You will be running about 1.5 H P per cu. in.. That is getting sratospheric in my book. These kinds of engines get real tempermental on the street. Need lots of rpms all the time, and don't like to idle along, and are real jerky in the low gears with a lumpy cam. Unless you plan to spend a lot of time putting up with that, you should strongly consider the 351. Yes it is heavier, and yes it has less H P. My response..... So what. These cars are so light and powerful, you and I will not be able to appreciate that extra power. Do you want to have a car that just out blast every one else, or are you looking for a car that will perform very well. The more power you add, the more abilities you need to handle it on the road AND track. Unless you are a better than average driver(read track) you won't be able to get the most out of your car or the most FUN out of your car, as it will be scaring the bejesus out of you at every turn. From what I have gotten from the guys who track their cars, the most difficult thing you have to work with is the handling of the car. They get the handling then the power. Of the guys that buy Cobras for the first time, a good number of them wind up wrecking them within the first year because they are not used to the lightness of the car and the power. So I would say, that if you are not used to light, big horsepower cars, I would pick the one that is more fun than powerful. Just my $.02.

Bill

[Chuck]

I also used T and L for my engine. They were promoting a 347 with Webers, but I wanted a true 302 with Webers. A bit less power, but hopefully more compatible with the Audi tranny. At 360 HP it is pretty close to the original. The car will be used primarily on the street with only a bit of track time. I talked to Lloyd at T and L several times and he was most accomodating. Took a bit longer to dyno and set the carbs, since T and L was not used to such 'small' engines. Here are some pics with the Ford Racing valve covers as shipped and the Weslake Guerny covers that replaced them. I have not yet fired it up, but sure do like the way it looks! If you want more details on the specs, let me know.

[Dutton]

Simon,

My apologies for the thread drift... that fuel line looks like it was pulled right out of the 60's, Chuck.

Excellent!!

T.