'65' 289 Query/info...?

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi all -

I had a look at a car for the HSCC GT series today, which was reportedly powered by a period 289 in classic historic trim and I was informed it had 1 & 7/8th inlet valves and solid lifters and was run with a 650 cfm DP Holley.

I was unable to locate an engine number and also to me, from the pics below, it seems to have hydraulic lifters fitted. It was reportedly good for 7K and made max power at 6500rpm, although they said they only ran it to 5500 and reported running oil pressure was 80psi on a HP pump. It had a Canton wet sump fitted.

So, can anyone have at a guess the likely power output of such a motor from the above details? and what sort of value would you put on such a unit, assuming it was in good order? + any other comments?

Thanks....

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Keith -
Sorry - I initially posted the above in the wrong section (doh!) but have now moved it.

And the car in question is a TVR Griffith as per HSCC Road Sports Championship - which specifies a min weight limit of 900kg (if that helps)..

ps - should possibly be in the GT and other sportscar section - oop's - so might get moved again.

[MReid]

Paul,

Those are definitely hydraulic lifters which makes me question the redline. They probably only ran it to 5500, becuase that was the point that the lifters couldn't keep up. Even with bigger valves and say ported heads, it is hard to estimate HP or TQ without the cam specs. Lastly, HP pumps are not typically good for sbf engines and 80 psi is usually enough to cause other problems including snapping the distributor drive shaft. The information furnished v. the visual details makes me nervous.

[Jac Mac]

With the Heavier Circlip in the lifters they could be solids- three bolt damper and wider looking damper ring suggest HiPo 289. A quick look under the rocker covers for raised ridge around the valve spring seats of head casting would confirm HiPo 289, but as Jimmy Mac has shown in past this is not always the case. As Mark points out the larger oil pump is no true indicator, but it would be a rare 289 that has not been played with since 65/68 They were fairly standard equipment for TVR Griffiths in the day and were happy to buzz up around 7k..

Jac Mac

[MikeP]

It looks to have had a bit of work done on the ports so better than as cast but unknown flow rates. It also must be a fairly hot cam if it max power is at 6500rpm. Edelbrock manifold and double pumper holley but unknown compression ratio. My 302 with same induction but Performer RPM heads and cam with max power at 5,000rpm gave 335bhp so I would guess at 300 -350hp. I saw a genuine 289 from an original GT40 at EDA which put out 420hp on quad webers on the dyno but which was a full race screamer.
Cheers
Mike

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Thanks guys.. all usefull stuff.

The vendor reckoned the motor had been on a rolling road showing 400+ at the wheels at 6500rpm, which I find hard to believe. He also added that they did'nt rev past 5500 generally.

If it is a true hipo - anyone have an idea as to value?

[John Fitzpatrick]

HiPo engine parts are getting very pricey- heads $2,000 - $2,500 a pair and distributors as high as $350. I haven't seen a complete motor in a while, but I wouldn't be surprised at a $10,000 price tag.

There are some very knowledgeable and helpful members on this board. HiPo Mustang eKschange

[MikeP]

I share your scepticism Paul. 400hp+ at 6,500rpm. I wish I had a dyno like that!
I would believe any hp figure only when it's been on a dyno or rolling road that I know and trust with a full print out with accurate corrected figures. I have seen a few 400+ hp motors that max out at 330 - 370hp when you test them out properly.
Cheers
Mike

[Keith Hardy]

Hi Paul, sorry my interest was only that I have a friend who races a '65 Mustang in historics and he has a similar engine but the rules preclude him changing almost anything except porting heads etc. So I was going to question the authenticity of the Holley 650 DP when it probably should have had an Autolite 4100 - but, as the motor was from a TVR Griffith...who knows!

PS 400hp at the wheels.. hmmmmm. A bit of Vendorspeak methinks.

[Gary Kadrmas]

Seems to me that Shelby in the racing days printed HP figures of:

Full Road Race-single four barrell=350 HP
Full Road Race-Webers=385 HP

I also remember Drag Race figures above that, but I can not remember the exact HP rating.

I bought my Cobra from Steve Monaco (Who owns CSX-2074 + a '65 GT-350), and when I built my engine for my Cobra, he loaned me a book (Shelby) that listed the specifications for these engines-and I mean everything down to the bearing clearances, piston weights, ect. So, I am reluctant to beleive 400 HP for a single 4 barrell without using aftermarket speed equipment.

Wish I had that book today!

[Howard Jones]

Math sometimes helps.

400Hp at the wheels? A loss of 75Hp from all other loads including the rest of the powertrain, driving a alternator, waterpump, etc. is in my mind conservative. But lets use it anyway.

So we have 475Hp at the crank.

475/289 = 1.64 hp/ CI.

That's REALLY a lot.

A good 302 with 10 to 1 CR, .55 lift 290 Degree cam, 2.02/1.60 valves, single plane 750 DP would be very hard pressed to achieve 1.5hp/inch or 453HP. This kind of power can be made with VERY good heads and a lot more cam and valvetrain $$$ such as ported AFR's and a solid roller cam and rockers but that's not what we have here.

I think ANY numbers that come form a chassis dyno have NO correlation to actual flywheel hp figures. Chassis dyno are very good as a tuning tool and a lot of good can be done with one but I wouldn't even begin to tell you how many people have had their 600HP engines make half of that on chassis dynos. It's not that the drivetrain losses are 50%, it's that the correlation between whatever flywheel dyno was used and the chassis dyno in question is zero.

As far as a iron head 1.8 inch intake valve, 10 to 1 CR, 289, and unknown "hot" cam specs. Hp would be anywhere from 1.0 to 1.2 hp per inch or 289 - 346Hp. My guess is on the lower end if those are hyd lifters/5500 and more up the scale if solids/7000.

As a reference the 289-302's used in the 60's by FORD in their GT40 program were in the 370-400HP range if I remember correctly.

By the way 300hp is plenty for a road going GT40.