Flat Tappet Cam failure.....Bad Oil???

[Howard Jones]

Have a look at these before you put that cam in that newly rebuilt motor. This is a real problem not a snake oil sales job.

ZDDPlus™ - ZDDP Additive for Classic Cars - Agricultural Equipment & More

http://www.compcams.com/Base/pdf/FlatTappetCamTechBulletin.pdf

Zddp Oil Issues

Engine Lubricants - Solving The Flat-Tappet Puzzle - Circle Track Magazine

ZDDPlus Oil Additive

http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief8 -...try vs. the Aftermarket Viewpoint on ZDDP.pdf

This is the reason I retrofit my flat tappet SBC block with a hyd roller cam and lifters.
If you don't believe me then Google " Flat Tappet Cam Failure ZDDP " and sit down for hours of reading.

One more,

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/46594/racing_oil_and_additves.aspx

 

[Randy V]

All good and valid warnings Howard....

I'm back to adding in a bottle of STP with every oil change in everything I have.. ZDDP in every bottle!

 

[Jac Mac]

I've got a couple of fairly lively 351w's due to go together shortly, looking at fitting a rev kit to the hydraulic roller lifters to see how far we can extend the RPM range with these. Should give the best of both worlds then, a few more rpm & less time checking lash etc.....

 

[Randy V]

Would love to watch over your shoulder on that one Jac. Rev Kits made all the difference for Chevy motors - but then again they needed all the help they could get eh?

 

[Steve Briscoe]

I've got a couple of fairly lively 351w's due to go together shortly, looking at fitting a rev kit to the hydraulic roller lifters to see how far we can extend the RPM range with these. Should give the best of both worlds then, a few more rpm & less time checking lash etc.....

Jac-
Please tell us more about your rev kit plans when you have a few moments. Would like to consider that for an engine that I previously thought would have solid roller lifters.
Thanks!

 

I've got a couple of fairly lively 351w's due to go together shortly, looking at fitting a rev kit to the hydraulic roller lifters to see how far we can extend the RPM range with these. Should give the best of both worlds then, a few more rpm & less time checking lash etc.....

Only 351 or adaptable on 289?

 

[Jac Mac]

Only 351 or adaptable on 289?

I have been giving some thought to a system that could be made to work on the 289/302 8.200" blocks using springs similar to those found on the followers/rockers of the Ford 2000/2300 4cyl SOHC engines.... conventional coil springs are a tight fit in the 8.200 blocks plus the lifter bore displacement angle just further complicates the problem.

 

[Andrew Robertson]

Jac, why would you muck around with a hyd roller and rev kit when a good solid roller, good light parts and matched springs will rev to the moon? I use a hyd roller in the road car (383 SBC) after wiping out 2 flat tappet hyd cams in wellington traffic, but wouldn't consider a hyd roller on anything that had to buss over 6k in competition.

Cheers, Andrew Robertson, Wellington, NZ

 

[Keith]

Never had a problem buzzing my Comp Cams Hyd Roller (SBC) up to 7.5k in race conditions and used to watch with amusement my competition constantly lashing their solids in the Paddock whilst I sipped tea and munched on cucumber sandwiches.

 

[Jac Mac]

Jac, why would you muck around with a hyd roller and rev kit when a good solid roller, good light parts and matched springs will rev to the moon? I use a hyd roller in the road car (383 SBC) after wiping out 2 flat tappet hyd cams in wellington traffic, but wouldn't consider a hyd roller on anything that had to buss over 6k in competition.

Cheers, Andrew Robertson, Wellington, NZ

Andrew I wouldnt for myself, its for some of the 'richard cranium' customers I have that will never adapt to the mechanical sympathy or warm it up before you thrash it line, let alone check the valve lash on regular basis etc.

 

[Jack]

Andrew I wouldnt for myself, its for some of the 'richard cranium' customers I have that will never adapt to the mechanical sympathy or warm it up before you thrash it line, let alone check the valve lash on regular basis etc.

Was speaking with my partner about Richards, we know them well...
Haven't heard that term for a few years. Right On!

 

[Kevin Box]

If you MUST run a flat tappet cam then the secret to making it live is the break in period
I have always been a fan of running a cam in with low tension springs for the first couple of hours of running in and then changing to heavier tension springs. To those people who do not have the right gear to change springs without taking the heads off this is a complete nuisance but it seems to produce the desired results. I have also normally coated the cam and lifters with molybdenum grease to ease the first couple of rotations. Never trusted this fancy expensive slimey break in oil.
I had no trouble when running with Mobil 1 using this procedure and was running solid cams up to 630 valve lift in both road cars and jet boats. Also I never got any clever grinds that were trying to emulate what a roller is capable of e.g. High lift & short duration (horses for courses) I used longer duration cams with more gradual lifts.

I agree with Andrew ROLLERS are great and depending on your rev range whether you really need to go hydraulic or solid. This is technology you should really get yourself into.
If you dont particularly like fiddling or paying to have someone else fiddle then go for a hydraulic grind
Also make sure you sort out the Distrinutor gear situation properly.
For SBFs the factory distributor gears for roller cams are the best. How many factory roller SBFs do you know of that had a failed distributor gear - real low percentage !!! Fancy bronze ones should be left on the shelf or maybe just thrown in the bin to save you time later. They will not live !!!

 

[Howard Jones]

The reason I posted this in the first place is that I think that the last of the Zinc and the other good stuff is mandated to come out of the oil either Jan 2010 of later that that same year.

I personally know of three professional engines builders that use this stuff (ZDDP) because they have had MANY new cams/lifters go flat within hours if not Min's of the first start-up. Yea, correct assembly lube, light springs, proper start-up procedure. Maybe this is a USA thing, but I don't think so.

Anyway the pro stock guy I know says it is IMPOSSIBLE to run one of his engines without it. He adds a can to every oil change and leaves it at that. No issues what-so-ever with oil as a result. These are 2.25 HP per inch engines that typically make more than a thousand HP.

My machine shop man say he has so many people come in with flat cams the last year or so that he keeps reprints of the Comp Cam tech article on hand and sells the ZDDP at his cost as a good will / customer relations gesture.

Another guy went through three cams/lifters and engine tear downs before he figured it out. All on the same engine. You don't think that customer was hot? Think again. By the way the builder ate the cost to make it right until he had it fixed. He is a professional remember? Add ZDDP... problem gone. This was a high rev solid lifter 289 by the way.

Remember the amount of zinc among other additives is changing for the worse as time goes buy. The story about how good the Mobil 1 works, or other oils such as diesel oil or racing oil, may be a couple of years old. It probably did work well then when it had the proper additives in it. The question is, what is in the oil you are putting in that brand new flat cam motor this week end?

It would be good to know, wouldn't it? And if you can't figure it out why not add a pint of ZDDP, as insurance, to the oil and not worry about it.

I don't sell this stuff or anything like that by the way.

 

[Rick]

Jac Mac..........

'richard cranium'

friggin hilarious!

 

[Scott Calabro]

I run Crower "Cool Face" lifters and this additive in addition to Brad Penn oil;

http://crower.com/pdf/flat_tappet_menu.pdf

http://crower.com/dl/ZDDP_clr.pdf

Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

 

[EGLITOM]

Scott the peen oil has basically the same ZN values as the Valvoline VR1 i use in´every of my engines and intend to use in the SBF with flat tappets as well.

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/VR-1_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf

As my engine is build to rev up to 7800 RPM i would like to give it an addtional protection by adding ZN additives.

I have not found yet any information about maximum ZN levels to strive for. I would go for a target like 2000 ppm ( VR1 has 1400 ppm already).

Does anyone have any info about the maximum level or if there could be too much ZN ??

Thanks

TOM

 

[Howard Jones]

Available from Summit Racing.

Crower 86092 - Crower ZDDPlus Motor Oil Additive - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Tom, If you read the many links in my first posting you will come down to the fact that the idea is to return modern oil (as available on the shelf today) additive levels, to those available before current environmental rules forced removal of the necessary additives. Again the real problem is knowing what is in the oil that you put into your engine as time goes by and the oil manufactures change their formulations. What may be OK this year may be a completely different formulation a year form now.

The best advice I can give you is to use the correct viscosity oil in a current normal motor oil (non racing, diesel, etc ) and then add ZDDP. 1 can of ZDDPlus to each 5 quarts of oil.

Here is the complete list of ZDDP tech briefs,

http://www.zddpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3

 

[EGLITOM]

Howard

basically agree, but still have no datas about evtly max levels of ZN PH

TOM

 

[Kevin Box]

Howard

This is an extraction from another bulletin board but confirms my suspician about Mobil 5W50

FWIW

Question:
Has Zinc Been Removed from Motor Oils?
I am having thrust bearing failure in a 4.6 modified performance engine. This is a street/strip engine. Many of my friends are having the same problem. I think it is the result of the removal of zinc from the oil. I was told by two separate racing engine builders that the EPA ordered the removal of the zinc from over-the-counter motor oil. I use Mobil 1 5W-20. Is this true and do you think a zinc additive might help?
-- Randy Lovejoy, Americas, GA

Answer:
The active ingredient that you are talking about is phosphorus which is added thru a component called ZDDP. For products that meet the new ILSAC GF-4 specification the phosphorus levels for the oil must be less than 800 ppm phosphorus. The ILSAC level for phosphorus has been reduced to protect the catalytic converter and other emission protection equipment. The engine manufacturers are confident that this level of phosphorus will protect both new and older engines. However, there are Mobil 1 products which have a higher level of phosphorus (phos) and can be used in engines in racing or high performance applications; see the attached table.

There is some options in there such as Mobil 1 15W50 or Mobil 1 Diesel Turbo Oil that you could use. The extra detergent is not actually an issue in a petrol engine. It just has the ability to keep it cleaner. The viscosity ratings are all that you need to worry about AFAIK.

 

[Rich E.]

Valvoline VR1 20-50 is my choice. As far as motor oils go its got alot of ZDDP and can still be had almost anywhere. Just bought a case for $3.99 a quart too..... The engine builder who put together my LS7 is putting it in pretty much everything. It's also in the dart 427 in the GT.

.02
Rich.