Buy new 351w block or used engine? Pro/Con?

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Peter

My apologies.... I'm a newb for pushrod V8's.... rebuilt VW 1.8L inline4, built a few VW air-cooled T1's, etc.
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I saw a used 351w out of a 1983 Ford van for $300. Didn't say much in the add about bolt-ons such as alternator, etc.

Just wondering if it's worth it to buy used, redo the block completely vs just buying a new block?

Obviously there won't be any need for machining on a new block vs old.

Tried a search on here and didn't find anything.

I'm thinking forged crank, forged pistons, cam w/roller hydraulic lifters, intake, alum heads.

Any favourite pieces you'd recommend keeping an eye on the buck-meter vs bang?

Will hydraulic cams go over 6500rpm? Lift/duration that still streetable but revs high?
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Edit:
Prob go with injection for better driveability. Anyone running the powerjection III? Or other FI and how do you like it? How much did it cost?
 
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DBLDREW

Junkyard 351W are usually good up to around 800hp (I’m speaking of the block not the stock internals) So if you want more then that then a Sportsman or Dart is what you need. But I would think it would be cheaper to do a junkyard block and have it rebuilt then just buying new.
 
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DBLDREW

Also what kind of HP are you looking for? I have a Mustang that I put a 351W into 15ish years ago and with N02 makes around 500 hp and I’m using the stock crank and rods just good forged pistons, and I shift @6500rpm, so you might save some $$ just using the stock crank. Find a good machine shop and they can look at what you have and let you know if is something they can re-condition.
 
blueovalz

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
The early blocks are reportedly stronger that the later blocks ('69 is the cutoff?). I had a later block, normally aspirated at about 500 ft/lbs, but it was stroked (383) with a girdle. 7500 rpm shifts and never broke (solid roller, 10.3 milled pistons, H-beam, AFR 210 heads, etc). My biggest concern would be getting it with a standard bore. 30-over is fine, 60-over is used, but I'd personally avoid it.

standard.jpg
 
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Peter

Cool. Thanks for the info.

I'm looking in the 450-500hp range but slightly more than that for cheap would be ok too. 30 over is what I was looking at as the max for a rebuild anyway.

Car has to be able to slap a new Corvette around the block. Corvette is 3208lb curb weight and 430hp so by calculation you need about 321hp to equal Corvette performance.
 
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Kevin Box

Supporter
I suggest if you want to make it zing on a budget go for this

SCAT Engine Components 1-94205 Engine Rotating Assembly

Summit Rracing are doing them for $990 at the moment

It is a 393 Crank rod piston combo for 351w

Easy way to get good power and all new bits.
 
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Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
The books I've read say that all other things being equal you are better off with an older block that has already been heat-cycled. Good race engine builders would remachine a brand new block in any event, so save yourself some money and buy an old one. There are some good inexpensive books out there on Ford Performance engines that can help you find the right old block.

The SCAT rotating assembly is a great deal. The engine in my GT40 has exactly that group of pieces, and easily made 360hp on the dyno, limited to 6000 revs, with a rather mild hydraulic cam and one Holley 650.

When I was picking bits for that engine, I also looked at a lot of comparison tests of cylinder heads, and came up with the idea that AFR are the best deal out there. For what it's worth.
 
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Peter

Thanks for the tips. I gotta pull out my old Mustang & Ford magazines from years past. Plus do a search on engine building. Just picked up an "engine masters" magazine today. Cool stuff but all 3 brands.

I figured a decent rotating assembly with all pieces would be the way to go. I'll check those heads out you mention.
 
C

Brian Hamilton

I'm on the verge of touching myself inappropriatel
I've got a friend selling a 396 stroker with Brodix heads for about $5500 that should make 550 NA all day long. He had the exact same setup in his 1989 Mustang Coupe with nitrous and put him in the 10's with well over 700 hp.

My experience is the 351-W is a dynamite engine. I believe it was late 80's to early 90's when they were equipped for roller lifters, but you can do a roller conversion on the earlier blocks by drilling and tapping holes in the bosses in the lifter valley and installing a "spider" that holds down the lifters. This is a common conversion and is available from just about any aftermarket parts supplier.

The early blocks are very high nickel content, thus being much stronger. Yes, 1969 is the cut-off for the high nickel blocks. The benefit for this is they will resist you boring them out to larger displacements than standard late model production blocks. Early model blocks will be fine up to .060 over whereas late model blocks will only be good out to about .040 max.

You can get aftermarket 351-W based blocks that have a taller deck height and can be built to over 460 cubic inch displacements, if that floats your boat. The std. 351 will go out to about 427 with the standard deck height.

In my experience the 351-W is best stroked to 393, 408, or 418. This way it can be rebuilt over and over again and you're not thinning out your cylinder walls and risking blowing it up under hard race conditions. You're still being "conservitive" in your build by leaving enough meat on the engine to hold up to abuse. The 396 is the 393 bored .030 over.

Anyway, I hope this helps!!

Brian
 
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Eric

Peter

The 351W is a great engine. You mentioned you want fuel injection. Just FYI, I bought a 351W with all of the accessories and the fuel injection all for $400. It was out of a 1996 E350 van. If you look around, you can get something that needs very little work for very little money. As mentioned in previous posts, you should be able to hit 400 hp with stock internals, despite what you may read (including in those books you ordered...I have them, too). The 351W is a very torquey engine, too, which is really cool.

Eric
 
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Kevin Box

Supporter
Added to my earlier comments on 351W

Roller blocks are not so easy to find so I suggest a solution as follows to get the best of both worlds i.e. roller hydraulic roller combo.

Firstly
You can get a 5.0 Roller cam and enlist the services of a reputable !!!! cam grinder to regrind it to a performance grind and reduce the base circle at the same time so you can use either standard dimesion SVO ford or aftermarket 5.0 roller followers. In NZ dollars this was $180 including hardening as required from regrind (maybe a little more now). I originally looked at aftermaket cams to do this and the roller follower sat too low in the cam follower bore !!! Usually requires the equivalent of 2 standard regrinds.

Secondly
You can fit the Mustang HO dog bones and guides from the 5.0 into the valley by boring the respective holes. Do this with cam bearings removed as they go into galleries if you ae not careful.

This all lets you have a hydraulic roller cam in a pre 75ish block - the best of both worlds - Roller cam and thick walled block. Note: use the roller cam gear on your Distributor to match.. best option is Ford original part as it lasts forever. As mentioned in my other posts, if some one offers you a bronze gear for your dizzy avoid the internmediate step and throw it straight in the rubbish. They are simply not as good as the steel Ford ones designed for roller cams.

351W is an awesome block to base your engine on!!!

if you need any help please advise

Kevin B
 
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DBLDREW

kevinruthbox said:
Added to my earlier comments on 351W


Firstly
You can get a 5.0 Roller cam and enlist the services of a reputable !!!! cam grinder to regrind it to a performance grind and reduce the base circle at the same time so you can use either standard dimesion SVO ford or aftermarket 5.0 roller followers. In NZ dollars this was $180 including hardening as required from regrind (maybe a little more now).
Kevin B
Click to expand...

You don’t need to get a 5.0 cam and have it re ground. Comp Cam and Crane Cam have off the shelf low base circle cams for the 351W (Comp has 14 different cam profiles in the retro fit for the 351W) and you can custom order any profile in a low base circle as well.
 
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Kevin Box

Supporter
DBLDREW

I tried a couple of these and the base circle is very small and this sets the oil holes too far up the lifter. The other thing is they set the lifter so far down the bore you have to get the top of the lifter boss machined excessively to let the dog bones operate correctly. I thought both of these are undesirable traits. They are real small base circle which is yuk also.

The crane cam looks fine in the book but when you come to install it then not so flash.

I have one here which I would really love to give away if ayone is interested

With the Crane cam you dont get a custom grind to suit your heads / Combo which isn't optimal either so I still reckon a reground second hand 5.0 cam is the go. They are certainly niether expensive or difficult to find.

regards
KevinB
I have done this acouple of times now and was very pleased with the end result.
 
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DBLDREW

I’ve run both a comp and a crane cam in my motor with no problems. I started out with a comp cam, but the cam profile had a bit to much overlap and I couldn’t pass emissions, so I would have to change cams every time I had to take the car to be tested (that got old) So I went with a milder Crane cam and that has been running for about 10 years now.

I didn’t have to machine the lifter bosses at all. Yes the base circle is low, but it has to be low running roller lifters in a non roller block.

I understand being concerned, but I shift at around 6500, (and have hit the 7000 rpm rev limiter more times then I really would like to admit) and have had no problems at all. Comp cam and Crane cam are HUGE manufactures, and have sold tons of these cams, if they didn’t work then there would be a lot of unhappy customers and they would have to re design them.

Both Comp Cams and Crane Cams make cams for dragsters that make over 5000hp, I think they know what they are doing.
 
blueovalz

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
The best cam I ever had for my 383 (stroke 351) was a spare stand-by from a previous winner in Jeg's Torque-Masters annual contest. It was a stump puller from 2600 all the way past 6200 rpm. Their focus is peak average torque. The lifter oil groove aligning with the lifter bore oil ports was a small issue that I remedied with a very slight "nick" on each lifter at the edge of the groove that allowed the oil to continue past the lifter toward the next bore even at full lift and base circle.

The torque-master guys really have it together. BTW, the cam was ground by Competition Cams. It was a solid roller with (I think) a .650 lift, 112º centers, and about 245º duration at .050 (just a guess being I don't have the card in front of me). The engine it was designed for was just a bit larger than 400 CID, so in my 383, the curve was pushed forward some from the original user.
 
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David Briggs

A really good option is the one mentioned in an earlier post. My son and I pulled a 351 out of a late 80's Ford van and built it for his 65 Mustang.
It was standard bore, set up for hydraulic roller cam with a one piece rear seal.
It was cheap and was a very good place to start, we used a Crower cam, SVO lifters, all good parts and fasteners and it turned out great.
A strong engine for not a lot of money.
 
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Peter

Anyone ever consider going forget internals, 8.5:1 compression, nothing fancy heads (maybe cheapest aluminum ones) and setup a couple of turbos on shorty manifolds? How much room is there beside the exhaust manifolds with the bundle of snakes setup? Could route the output of the turbos into one powerjection throttle body. Have a smaller intercooler either side of the rear clamshell but you'd need venting such as the MK2's I guess.

Thoughts? Easier on the tranny with less initial torque. But hold on up high.
 
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DBLDREW

Sure in fact I think there is a member that has a twin turbo set up. But the problem has never been making enough power out of a SBF. The problem has always been getting a transaxle to handle the power. Even a mild 351W will have enough power to destroy most of the cheaper transaxle options unless driven gently. If you want turbos expect to drop $10-15,000 on a transaxle to handle the power.
 
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