Cost of engines

H

James Harvey

Just been looking at engines and noticed that for similar specs, the Ford engines are more expensive than Chevy engines.

For a couple of examples....

In US:

Chevy: 350ci, 330hp, $6,000
Ford: 302ci, 330hp, $7,000

So around 17% more expensive

In UK:

Chevy: 350ci, 330hp, £3,500 plus VAT
Ford: 302ci, 330hp, £4,400 plus VAT

So around 25% more expensive

Is there any fundamental reason for this? I know there's a strong view that a GT40 should have a Ford engine etc, so don't want to start any arguments! But what justifies the premium?

Cheers
James
 
I

Ian K

Has to do with the price and availability of "go fast" parts I suppose. Remember that Ford had all but officially abandoned racing and thus the aftermarket performance industry from 1971 - 1981. That put a big halt to the development of aftermarket support and parts.

A Mopar 5.7l crate Hemi motor, carb'd wth 360HP/360 lbs/ft is over $7K in the US.

Ian
 
CANTDRIVE55

Doc Kaler

I would guess it is an availability issue since the Chevy 350 was found across all GM marks, making it more available in one form or another.
 
R

Rich Roy

also consider the fact that G.M. small blocks and high performance parts are availible just about anywhere so the prices are less, I've seen overhaul kits at Safeway and 7-11 quick marts before! (just kidding) The range of different after-market suppliers is endless for G.M. verses Ford small blocks resulting in lower prices. Remember, a Ford in a Ford/ a Chev in a Chev! Other wise you can't park in our yard!!!
 
J

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
This really has to do with how much of this stuff is made... the aftermarket is awash in Chevy performance motors and parts for them. There are some manufacturers who don't even make parts for anything other than SBC and BBC engines... they just don't bother. They can make all the money they want building stuff for Chevy motors. There are some economies of scale operating here.
 
5

Mike Drew

jimbo said:
This really has to do with how much of this stuff is made... the aftermarket is awash in Chevy performance motors and parts for them. There are some manufacturers who don't even make parts for anything other than SBC and BBC engines... they just don't bother. They can make all the money they want building stuff for Chevy motors. There are some economies of scale operating here.
Click to expand...

There's also a LOT of Chinese junk parts out there for the Chevy. That makes it very cheap to build a Chevy if you're willing to cut corners. Many engine builders apparently do so, and then sell their engines cheaply. Most Ford parts are quality parts (whether Ford makes them or not), usually made either in the USA or (in the case of the 351C at least) Australia, making it much more difficult to build a cheap Ford.

With engines, as with most things in life, you definitely get what you pay for!

And as for the idea of putting a non-Ford engine in a Cobra, or a GT40 replica?

main.php
 
I

Ian K

Again, the reason why there are so many places to get parts (including "Chinese junk") as well as so many shops that build 'em, it all has been traced back to Ford and Chrysler putting a ban on racing (Ford was out from 1971 - 1981, Chrysler only maintained 2 teams from 1971 - 1977, privateers campaigned without factory support from 1978 - 1985, with Petty opting out of Chrysler cars in 1978, and nothing from 1986 until 2001).

Ian
 
F

David

harvs said:
Just been looking at engines and noticed that for similar specs, the Ford engines are more expensive than Chevy engines.
Chevy: 350ci, 330hp, £3,500 plus VAT
Ford: 302ci, 330hp, £4,400 plus VAT
So around 25% more expensive
Click to expand...

Without wanting to re-open too much of a can of worms the Chevy is 5.74l, the Ford is 4.95l so they're not the same spec. To get the same power from a lower capacity the Ford needs to be in a higher state of tune and that costs more. You should compare a 351w with the same power as the Chevy 350 to get a better idea.

< opens can of worms >
Of course if you are prepared to not go Ford there is always the option here in the UK of other V8's. As an example the Audi V8 is ~330BHP and can be picked up s/h for far less than either the Chevy or Ford. Going to be tricky to fit it though (I've discounted it as I've been told it *needs* to be dry sumped *and* then go with a non-Audi box *and* have chassis modifications otherwise it sits some 12cm too high!)

Then there is the old Rover V8. ok so the 3.5 is underpowered and going to cost the same (if not more) as the SBF to get up to power but they are available in up to 5l (5.2 max) and ~340BHP.

Finally there is the 1UZ-FE and the M60B40 and M62B44, a bit underpowered in comparison and expensive to get up to power though (unless you boost them). The 1UZ-FE I've seen in GT40's, not seen a M60 or M62 fitted although I've heard of a few attempts and De Tomaso used one in the Guarà mated to a transaxle so it's do able.
 
brettmcc

Brett James-McCall

Moderator
The clue is in the name - its a replica of a Ford GT40

For the rest of you with your other crazy suggestions :stupid:

It will be worth it in the end. Try it - you might like it LOL
 
F

David

Which would be great if all the rest was Ford too. ;)

So far I have all of 2 Ford 'parts' in mine[1]. Front uprights/hubs and air vents. I may replace the hubs before I'm done too. Only likely to increase to a few more parts when finished and just about every replica is the same.

Brett, you work for Ford, how many parts apart from the engine are Ford in yours?

Of course you could argue that if you used a 89-07 Aston Martin V8, 99-10 Volvo V8, 89-08 Jaguar V8 or a 00-08 Range Rover V8 then they're Ford engines.... :)

I did say I was opening the can of worms! :)

[1] Although a few more parts are Ford spec but sourced from OEM, eg rack, track rod ends etc.
 
Last edited:
H

James Harvey

Without wanting to re-open too much of a can of worms the Chevy is 5.74l, the Ford is 4.95l so they're not the same spec. To get the same power from a lower capacity the Ford needs to be in a higher state of tune and that costs more. You should compare a 351w with the same power as the Chevy 350 to get a better idea.
Click to expand...
Yep, good point David on the state of tune vs price. The price for the Ford 351 is £4,400 + VAT which is the same as the 302, but it does have a little more hp at 350. So still considerably more than the chevy.

Ideally, I'd like to find a complete 302 which just requires a re-build to give a reliable engine for a reasonable price (although I do like the sound of a stroker kit). I guess you've been looking for this on ebay too and found they are like gold dust!

Audi option - did you get a reason for not using an audi box? I'd have thought an 01E or 01X would be ideal?

Lexus - haven't really seen this option - do you know what box would be suitable?
 
F

David

There are 3 * 302's on ebay atm (and some 351's) suitable for a rebuild, item 120803688638 for example.

01E / 01X would bolt on fine to the Audi but AFAICT would have the drive shafts in the wrong position. I could be wrong on that but the idea of dry sumping and chassis modifications crossed it off my list. If it was a 600HP monster then it might be worth it but at an estimated ~3k to dry-sump it just doesn't make sense for only 300HP.

For me there are three reasons for considering a non-SBF

1) Reliability. Buy a standard engine with ~300BHP. Never touch it. Don't worry about it not starting or blowing up.
2) Cost of power. Standard engine with 300BHP at ~£500 or tuned SBF with 330HP for 5.2k.
3) MPG. Stupid though it may sound I'd like to drive my GT40 and 30mpg+[1] (cruising) makes it *far* more usable than 15mpg.

For any of them (including the SBF) you still have a bundle of snakes to buy and an adapter/clutch to buy. Downside about the more modern engines is they'll need an EFI ECU which unless you can get the original (and get it to work) costs a lot.

The 1UZ-FE is 'bomb-proof' but slightly underpowered. Can be boosted to ~500BHP without any internal mods. Popular in Aus/NZ. Same 01E / 01X gearbox would be suitable. Engines go *cheap* as they don't die in the original cars. Two 'short' ones on ebay atm, one at £150, one at £200. Both IMO overpriced and haven't sold for about 2 months...
Dimensions are in another thread somewhere.

I may still go with a SBF but I'm considering all my options at the moment. Rover V8 is out, Audi is out. Lexus, BMW and Jag are still in. I've got years to consider this and wind up Brett before buying a 302 anyway. ;)

[1] If an engine will manage 30+ in a 740 or LS400 it's likely to be even better in the GT40.
 
H

James Harvey

Thanks for the info. Yep, I'd seen the 302 blocks on ebay. Not sure I'd have the confidence to take on an engine build starting with effectively just the block.

I like the simplistic nature of a V8 with carburettor, quite fitting with the era. But can definitely see why other options may be considered.

I've getting How to Rebuild the Small-Block Ford for Christmas, so may help narrow down the options!
 
F

David

If you're going for tuned then I wouldn't worry much about that. Essentially it becomes.

1) Start with a SBF.
2) Throw away everything apart from the block
3) Replace with new-performance items.
 
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