Fel-Pro Gasket Problem

[Kalun D]

Running AFR 165 heads on a '92 HO 302 roller block.

Using the AFR recommended gaskets.

head gasket #1011-2
intake gasket #1250

Early on I was getting some coolant leakage at the corners of the heads. I thought it was because I was running straight water and it corroded either the block, head, or the gaskets. Recently I tore the engine down and when removing the throttle bodies was surprised to see the intake gaskets were not port matched anymore, when I knew I had carefully lined everything up they were now sticking out 3/16" in places.

After pulling the intake manifold I found the intake gaskets totally shrunk, to the point where they have split at both ends and have large black soft carbon tracks indicating leakage through the splits.

Further removing the heads I've pinpointed the leak at the head corners. It seems the strips of blue sealer on the gaskets do not line up on all passages on the heads and on the block.

Sort of disappointed with Fel-Pro at this point as this engine only has 1500 miles on it. I do have to admit that during setup the engine temp briefly got to 225 F at one point due to inadvertently leaving the electric water pump disconnected. But it doesn't seem like this should have caused all this failure especially the sealer line-up issue. The intake really moved due to shrinkage but the head gasket doesn't look like it moved, it was mis-aligned from the start.

Does anyone have any recommendations for head and intake gaskets other than FelPro? Or maybe a different FelPro part number?

[Bill Musarra]

I recently had to replace my intake gaskets when I pulled the intake manifold in order to get the cam sensor out(distributor). I had a hard time getting the correct gaskets. NAPA should be able to get them for you. Mine were stuck to the heads and tore when the intake was lifted. I don't remember the part number but the intakes are the "high performance" Fel Pro gaskets. Their standard gaskets have a grey color to them and the raised portion is not as pronounced as the Hi pos. I have the 205 AFR's on my 351. Installing the gaskets, use some silicone gasket material in the areas that arenot raised to hold them in place on the head for putting the manifold in place. I used silicone for the valleys and not the cork ones that come with the kit. They move around too much and will tend to leak. No leakage there at all. Snug the manifold down first and then torque them an hour later. For the heads I would suggest the copper gaskets for the bottom of the heads. Don't remember the manufacturer. Had to replace mine after about 10 hours of run time due to a clearance issue between pistons and valves. Not a bit of trouble(or damage) before or after. On the off hand, check the block for flatness in that leak area.

Bill

[Mike Huddart]

Years ago Fel Pro actually told you that the stock type " Print o Seal" gaskets were for race use only ie for motors that got torn down regularly and the gaskets replaced, NOT for street use. If you look in the back of their catalogue now they say they are for "true race use " whatever that means and for "long service life engines" use their premium solid core gaskets, in your case a 1250 S-3, very similar to the stock gaskets you get in a Fel Pro gasket set but without the Print O Seal.
What they mean is that the silicon Print O Seal strip cuts the regular gaskets with extended use and always has !
In fairness to AFR they do tell you that the 1250 doesn't fit their heads properly.
For a reliable "fits all" gasket that lasts forever think about the Mr Gasket 203G, glue it down with something like Permatex High Tack and let it harden off before fitting the manifold, works for me.
Mike

[Kalun D]

Originally Posted by mike huddart

use their premium solid core gaskets, in your case a 1250 S-3, very similar to the stock gaskets you get in a Fel Pro gasket set but without the Print O Seal.

In fairness to AFR they do tell you that the 1250 doesn't fit their heads properly.
For a reliable "fits all" gasket that lasts forever think about the Mr Gasket 203G, glue it down with something like Permatex High Tack and let it harden off before fitting the manifold, works for me.
Mike

When I put this engine together about 5 years ago AFR recommended the 1250, saying nothing about it not fitting. This intake gasket fits perfectly it wasn't leaking until it shrunk and cracked.

The head gaskets on the other hand, the Print O Seal did not line up in places with the water ports on the head and on the block. Especially the corners of the head. It leaked almost from day one.

You're giving a recommendation on intake gaskets, what about the head gaskets?

[Kalun D]

Originally Posted by wbmusarra

I recently had to replace my intake gaskets when I pulled the intake manifold in order to get the cam sensor out(distributor). I had a hard time getting the correct gaskets. NAPA should be able to get them for you. Mine were stuck to the heads and tore when the intake was lifted. I don't remember the part number but the intakes are the "high performance" Fel Pro gaskets. Their standard gaskets have a grey color to them and the raised portion is not as pronounced as the Hi pos. I have the 205 AFR's on my 351. Installing the gaskets, use some silicone gasket material in the areas that arenot raised to hold them in place on the head for putting the manifold in place. I used silicone for the valleys and not the cork ones that come with the kit. They move around too much and will tend to leak. No leakage there at all. Snug the manifold down first and then torque them an hour later. For the heads I would suggest the copper gaskets for the bottom of the heads. Don't remember the manufacturer. Had to replace mine after about 10 hours of run time due to a clearance issue between pistons and valves. Not a bit of trouble(or damage) before or after. On the off hand, check the block for flatness in that leak area.

Bill

Summit and Jegs have such a huge selection it's going to be tough to decide. I used the cork on the valleys, it had some two sided tape on it that held them in place. That's about the only place of the head/intake gaskets that wasn't leaking.

Thinking I might go with the copper for the head. The block is checked, it's very flat.

[Jim Cowden]

I was under the impression copper head gaskets require a specific micron finish on the decks?

jim

[Kalun D]

Some pics

Here's the leakage into the valley




Here's the shrinkage on the intake gasket. It pulled inwards so much that it cracked and was leaking at all 4 corners, note the black carbon track. Also note it pushing up against the mounting stud. These gaskets were closely port matched, now they are off by 3/32". Called AFR and Summit, both claim the FelPro is the premium gasket and neither have heard of this issue. Only thing I can think that's abnormal is the slight overheat.




Here's the coolant passage alignment problem, this is on the head side. The AFR heads don't exactly match the block. They match close enough but when the "print-o-seal" (the blue sealing strip) comes into the equation it's over the edge. May just end up using some sealer because the metal gaskets are like 3 times the price of the FelPro. The rust stain that shows the alignment is from running straight water right at first.




Here's where the block doesn't line up with the print-o-seal. The triangular ports in the block are a little off center, not enough to be that misaligned with the head but enough to be misalinged with the print-o-seal. The lighter colored strip is where the blue print-o-seal was resting.

[Cliff Beer]

Kalun, there's definitely a lot of give and take in inlet manifold gaskets across the different manufacturers. None are super precise in my limited experience. Having tried a good number of them (I was having inlet manifold leaks), my impression was that the FelPro gaskets were the best of the bunch, which isn't saying much for them.

The last time I replaced mine I had to do a bit of "fine tuning" to the gasket and test/trial fitting.

One thing I tried, which may be a bit unorthodox is I loosened the head bolts somewhat so that the the inlet manifold and heads lined up better, then tightened everything (head bolts and inlet manifold bolts) down progressively and concurrently. Doing this seems to have eliminated any leaks at the inlet manifold for me.

I used a thin skim of Form-a-gasket on the inlet manifold side of the manifold gasket (gasket comes off with the manifold down the road), dry on the other side.

I use the cork seals at the fore/aft ends of the valley - so long as they're centered properly and extend fully across the span (without overlapping at the ends) they seem to seal well.

Good luck!

[Kalun D]

Initially the intake gaskets had a pretty good fit and were closely port matched right out of the box. After about 2000 miles they have drastically shrunk and distorted from their original position. To the point were they actually cracked in 1/2 in 4 places.

[Adrian]

I have had the same problem with my inlet manifold leaking water, with a subsequent over heat. I took the heads off and had them cleaned up with a minor skim and pressure tested. They turned out ok, so I put them back on with Felpro Perma-torque gaskets. These do not bite into the head as other types do so if the heads come off in the future they will need no skimming.
I used felpro inlet gaskets with the red sealant around the portholes. I also used an RTV (sealant) around the water holes. All is now back together and a fast run down to LMC and the track session proved that every thing is OK.
The one thing I have noticed and this has been backed up the people at Real Steel (and others) is that the engine blocks twist on these 302's thus loosening all of the bolts on the inlet and the exhaust manifolds.
The block twists because it is fairly shallow compared to other manufafcturers.
Keep the bolts tight and the problem should not occur again.
I hope this makes sense.