Windage tray for GTD40 (with 302 engine)

[Dave Garner]

I am looking at changing the stock rear sump on my GTD40 for a higher capacity (baffeled) front sump with a windage tray.
The engine is a 1979 vintage 302.
If you have done this on a GTD, which sump did you use? I am trying to find a sump that avoids me having to significantly modify it to clear the chassis!

I am assuming there are no significant issues moving from a rear sump to a front sump - if there are please let me know!
Many thanks
Dave

 

[Andy Green]

Hi Dave,
I used one of these in a Tornado (same as a GTD in this area) and is fine. You will need a matching oil pick-up pipe.
Moroso Street/Strip Oil Pans 20503 - SummitRacing.com
Also available in the UK from RealSteel
Regards,
Andy

 

[Frank Catt]

Most use a Canton rear pick up sump pan, 7.5 inches deep and fits standard ( and lowered ) GTD302 engines without modification, Frank

 

[Dave Garner]

Thanks Guys!

Dave

 

[Keith]

I can't imagine any circumstances why you would want to go from a rear sumped pan to a front pan anyway. Most common acceleration forces would send all the oil to the rear which makes it the best location for the pick-up.

I have some experience of gated/baffled Moroso pans and whilst they are good value for money, I could never get mine to seal properly and ended up having to remove it because of the amount of oil it would lose through the rear main seal in hard cornering (it was a track only car).

I'm sure others will have different experiences, but if Frank says use a Canton rear sump, then I believe that would be the very best option!

 

[Malcolm]

The canton sumps allow you to get more capacity of oil in the sump. I think they call them saddle sumps as they have lumps at both ends but shallow in the middle to go over the GTD cross brace under the engine. Oil pick up is the important thing here. Don't do anything that reduces the amount of oil picked up.

I have a windage tray sitting on the shelf if of interest. It came from my last 302 block. PM if interested.

 

[Ron Earp]

I can't imagine any circumstances why you would want to go from a rear sumped pan to a front pan anyway. Most common acceleration forces would send all the oil to the rear which makes it the best location for the pick-up.

Except for the braking forces are in far excess of the acceleration forces.....

I'd use a Canton Road race pan. Front sump with internal trap door baffles. Not expensive and it works. Never had a problem with our Lola equipped with the pan and we achieved just over 1.5g in turns and the car had many race and track day hours on it.

 

[Jac Mac]

[[[Except for the braking forces are in far excess of the acceleration forces.....]]]

I'd use a Canton Road race pan. Front sump with internal trap door baffles. Not expensive and it works. Never had a problem with our Lola equipped with the pan and we achieved just over 1.5g in turns and the car had many race and track day hours on it.

Yes, but the motor spends a lot more time accelerating to reach those speeds...the real oiling problem occurs when people use the gearbox to slow the car down instead of the brakes, nothing will wipe out a set of rod bearings faster..low rpm/oil pressure, conrods in tension, big end goes egg shaped, bye bye bearing clearance... hello drivers book of bad excuses..

 

[John Fitzpatrick]

Yes, but the motor spends a lot more time accelerating to reach those speeds...the real oiling problem occurs when people use the gearbox to slow the car down instead of the brakes, nothing will wipe out a set of rod bearings faster..low rpm/oil pressure, conrods in tension, big end goes egg shaped, bye bye bearing clearance... hello drivers book of bad excuses..

I'd never thought about that, and I've been guilty of doing it all my life on the road. Why is it that so many big rig drivers brake down through the gears?

 

[Keith]

For HGV I would have thought it is to assist in preserving air for the braking system.

As for me, I still do it all the time, even with automatics! I used engine braking on the race track too just like many others and it is still a habit from way back to 'sliding mesh' type gear box days before synchro, when brake linings were made of marzipan..

I had never contemplated the downside, but it does make sense. Professional Police drivers in the UK are trained to use 'brakes before gearboxes' as pads and discs are cheaper.

 

[Dave Garner]

I fitted a Canton 15-644 sump on Frank Catt's advice and .................... EXCELLENT!

It fit PERFECTLY (including clearing the new windage tray)first time.
It allowed me to lower the engine by over an inch which, as well as the general benefit of lowering the C of G, gave me clearance under the rear deck so I could use a couple of thick valve cover gaskets to ensure clearance on the new roller rockers
It has a vast oil capacity - always handy!
It looks good!!

So SPOT ON all round.

Thanks Frank!

Dave

 

[Frank Catt]

Dave, if using the universal Canton dip stick with the Sump, make sure that you recalibrate the markings on the stick to the correct levels, those on the stick as is are wrong and will give you far to little oil level. The sump will ordinarily take 6.5 litres of oil, the correct level being just below the oil temperature plug hole. I have seen many damaged engines were installers have assumed that the markings on the stick are correct for that particular sump, they are not ! Call me if unsure, Frank

 

[Dave Garner]

Thanks Frank!, I did a test fill on the sump before fitting (with water), using the windage tray as a guide.
Canton quote it as a 7 quart sump and when I tried it, 7 quarts was slightly below the windage tray (8 quarts just touched the bottom of the tray) and there is the depth of the tray plus clearance to the crank above the tray as a 'safety margin'.

When I put the engine in I filled with 7 quarts and marked the dip stick, I retained the original dip stick between cylinders 7 & 8 rather than fiting the new one. I then ran the engine and marked the stick again when it had filled the oil filter to give me a '1 quart low' marking. Because the engine is canted nose down I have decided to run half way between the marks to make sure the front counterweights don't 'froth the oil' but now I have your 'accurate experience based level measurement' I will check and see how it matches to what I marked (and adjust my markings as required!)

Thanks again for the help

Dave

 

[Frank Catt]

Dave, you need a clearance between the oil and the bottom of the tray for it to be effective, this includes any surge on acceleration or braking. Now you can see the benefit of setting the engine level rather than nose down, something we have been advocating for a long time.

 

[Robert May Eng.]

It does sound like some of you guy`s have found the limit of a wet sump. It does get to a point when a dry sump is the only option.If you are going to spank these cars round a track the long sweeping curves,acceleration and deceleration will see the oil leave the pick up no matter how good the trap door system is. Or your not trying hard enough:lipsrsealed:

Bob

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

It does sound like some of you guy`s have found the limit of a wet sump. It does get to a point when a dry sump is the only option.If you are going to spank these cars round a track the long sweeping curves,acceleration and deceleration will see the oil leave the pick up no matter how good the trap door system is. Or your not trying hard enough:lipsrsealed:

Bob

I'm sure most people are not fully aware of what their oil pressure is actually doing. On Roy Smart's GTD40 we data loggerd the pressure and it fluctuated a lot when driving hard on track, esp when on slicks.

Once a dry-sump system was installed, the problem never presented itself again...