Ford 302 build advice

Hi,
I've sourced an '87 ford 5.0L engine that I'm tearing down for rebuild into the GT40. It's got roller lifters, though not sure how to tell if they are solid / hydraulic lifters? What are they likely to be?

All okay so far, it appears to have had a fresh rebuild to 30 over, with no lip on the bores and hone marks still very clear. Will know more when it's fully stripped down. There's lots of solid gunk in the coolant passages, so that needs investigating. I'm thinking somebody may have mixed coolants. Looks from the damage to the fan and the bent aux belt bracket the truck was in a front end shunt shortly after the rebuild. Hope all okay internally.

Assuming I don't find anything too bad I plan to have it cleaned / inspected / measured / light hone at a local specialist engine builder.

So I'm currently thinking of build spec. Nothing massive, aiming for about 350bhp at the flywheel, so not too radical. Will stay at 302(/308) unless a new crank is needed, in which case I might go 331 or 347.

I'm thinking:
- Stock crank and rods with new bearings / ARP rod bolts
- Possible stock oil pump, not sure if high perf needed?
- Flat top hyper pistons with clearance for big valves.
- fairly budget aluminium heads - ie blueprint/edelbrook e-street/promaxx (avoiding the very cheap castings)
- Throttle body efi (eg fitech go-efi or similar), this will dictate single plane crank.

I'm happy to push the power band up the rpm range a bit obviously as we don't need low down torque.

Not sure what to do cam wise. I can't seem to find any performance cams that use the 302 firing order AND are suitable for roller lifters? All the Ford letter cams are 351W/302H.O. firing order, and I want to keep the 302 sound as much as possible. Does it make a big difference? Do I need to keep the 302 firing order for the closest GT40 sound? If so can anyone suggest a street roller cam that might work?

Thoughts and feedback welcomed!
 
Duncan,
Good choice on the engine. Get it checked out and go with the suggestions of the guys doing the work. My suggestions are not for exotic stuff, but stuff easily sourced. For a cam look to Comp cams for a roller hydraulic. No radical lift but something that will fit the rpm band you are looking for. It doesn't require a lot of maintenance like a solid lifter setup. Heads, I favor the AFR, either 195 or 205 setup. They allow the engine to breathe and that is good with the combinations you are looking at. EFI you may want to look at the EZ setups that are out there. They are self learning and once you get some time under your belt take it for a final tune and test on the dyno. Look for a shop that is experienced with the setup you settle on. You want to stay away from the VERY involved setups as they will require a lot of attention and will give you headaches when glitches arise. I am sure there are others that will chime in and have good suggestions to think about as well.

Bill
 
Duncan,
I'd second what Bill is saying. You might want to read a few of the tuning books to get a feel of what's involved. Keep it simple with known parts and don't get lured into unknown bright shiny stuff. Use high quality fasteners like ARP and don't reuse any highly stressed bolts - you won't know if a 'gorilla' has over torqued them! Bin anything that looks shabby and keep everything spotlessly clean and orderly. Plan the reassembly and if you are new to this motor do a dummy build to check clearances especially valve to piston.
If you are unsure on any aspect, check it out and seek advice.
Cheers
Roger
 
Thanks guys. Certainly keeping it simple, and going for new ARP fasteners sounds like a plan. Next time I'm in the US I need to raid the nearest speedshop I think! I certainly like the fitech EFI systems (and the Holley when it's launched) for an all in one EFI system that's self tuning without messing with jetting and idles adjustment etc. I'm hoping there's a big reliability improvement too. I spend my life sat in a car connected to a laptop, so being able tweak mapping myself is quite a draw. Fuel system will certainly be planned around fuel injection.

I had a look at the comp cams selector etc, but it's really hard to tell which cam is which firing order, it really seems you struggle to get roller cams that are 302 firing order. I'm starting to think it may be easier just to go with the later firing order. Shame though.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Hi, I've sourced an '87 ford 5.0L engine that I'm tearing down for rebuild into the GT40. It's got roller lifters, though not sure how to tell if they are solid / hydraulic lifters? What are they likely to be?

So I'm currently thinking of build spec. Nothing massive, aiming for about 350bhp at the flywheel, so not too radical. Will stay at 302(/308) unless a new crank is needed, in which case I might go 331 or 347.

I'm thinking:
- Flat top hyper pistons with clearance for big valves.

Hi, Duncan!

The engine in my Cobra replica has what I think is a stock-block 5.0 liter (302 CID) HO (High Output) engine out of an '89 Mustang GT. It has hydraulic roller lifters, so if you are looking at a stock-block engine I would expect yours to be equipped with hydraulic lifters, too.

Regarding the choice between 331 and 347 stroker cranks...conventional wisdom says there is no replacement for displacement; however, there have been reports of the large end of the rods hitting the bottoms of the cylinders, requiring the bottom of the cylinder walls to be notched for clearance with the 347 cranks...I am not sure if it depends on the brand of connecting rods used or not, but if it were me I think I would stick with the 331 crank, it should not be difficult to build the kind of power you want with 331 cubes...and there are no rod clearance issues.

IIRC some of the 5.0-HO engines had hypereutectic pistons from the factory...but I am not sure which years. My '89 does, so it would be worth checking out whether or not your '87 does. If it actually does and your bores are round with no taper perhaps you could have "eyebrows" machined into your factory pistons and reuse them.

One other issue...I have heard that the standard 5.0 and the high-output 5.0 use different cams because they have different firing orders. If this is accurate, perhaps this is the answer to your camshaft dilema?

Good luck with your build!

Cheers!!!

Doug
 

Mike Pass

Supporter
I assume that you are aware of the IVA test and that the emissions demands are very different for different ages of engine. This why most people look for a pre '75 block as this has only a requirement for no visible smoke. If you need the IVA info on engine age and emissions drop me a PM and I can send them to you.
Check out the Real Steel website as they have a good range of parts for SBF engines. I am sure they will have a roller cam in 302 firing order or will be able to order one for you.
Real Steel
Check out the engine services section for prices for machining operations.
If you do go to 331 or 347 the sides of the block and the bottom edge of the cylinder will need to be notched. I have an '87 roller block that has had all the machining done and I can take a pic of the notching if you need it.
I have been recommended to use the standard capacity oil pump as this is more than adequate and the HP pump puts more load on the drive shaft. An uprated drive shaft is good idea.
I have used the Edelbrock Performer RPM ally heads for a long time now without any issues. I also use the Performer RPM inlet manifold with a 650 Holley. This does 335hp and 340 lb.ft torque with a a standard road cam. The Performer RPM air gap is even better and worth another 15-20hp. You can do your engine with internal or external balance if you go for a new crank but with the crank you have it will be external balance. A new crank damper is a good idea as is a really good balance job using the flywheel/clutch that suits your application. ARP bolts throughout is a sensible swap.
Check the bore size with a digital caliper. It is 4.000" as standard but may be bored out to the usual 4.030".
As the Edelbrock Performer RPM and E street heads are expensive over here I have a set of the Chinese ally heads. These have a bad rep in some quarters but I think that the castings are at least as good as the Edelbrocks. The main issue is the rest of it valves, springs etc. If these heads are fitted with good quality parts then they are OK. I have a set which have all Manley parts in them. They are "very similar " hmmmm. to the Dart Pro one in design. One of the minor issues with the Edelbrock heads is that the exhaust port is a bit small. The Chinese heads have much bigger exhaust ports. I have a comparison pic with the two heads side by side.
The hypereutectic pistons are cheaper than forged and a bit lighter and because they expand less they can run a tighter fit in the bores and hence will run quieter. However quiet is a relative term with an engine 3" behind your left ear behind a thin bulkhead! I use the forged ones and my engine is now in it's 16th year of abuse.
There are many books on these engines but I would recommend talking to an engine builder who has been building American V8s for many years. I always talk to Kenny Coleman at Engine Data Analysis. Engine Data Analysis "Specialist Engine Building & Tuning"
Cheers
Mike
 

PeteB

GT40s Supporter
350hp is going to be hard to do with the stock crank and budget heads. I was getting about 350hp out of my Cobra engine that was a 351W with stock crank, a pretty radical cam, and AFR 185 heads.

As for the cam, the cam specs are going to make a much bigger impact on the sound than the firing order.

Go with a stock oil pump. A high pressure pump in a SBF usually ends with a chewed up distributor gear.
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
They are hydraulics. 1972 was the last solid lifter in a Ford street car.

Rick, let's see if my Ford memory is intact...

That would have been the factory Clevor equipped Boss 302 and Boss 351 models, right?

Cheers!

Doug
 
1300,1600,2000cc OHC pintos & some V6 were solid lifter well into the eighties...but they probably dont count as street cars in the USA
 

Mike

Lifetime Supporter
I want to keep the 302 sound as much as possible. Does it make a big difference? Do I need to keep the 302 firing order for the closest GT40 sound?

I had similar goals and chose a flat tappet le mans grind from Cobra Automotive. Having adjusted valves regularly on my Cummins hotrod, I would not be afraid of doing it a couple times a year on a 302. If you have a GT40 it seems you've already accepted your role as chief mechanic and tinkerer.
 
Does not really matter.
 

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I agree with Mike Pass :)

As you have a 87 block it will most likely mean that you have to meet CO2<=3.5% and HC<=1200ppm.

I have some Patriot Performance Heads (Alabama Cylinder Head or Pro Maxx now or whatever) and have ended up replacing all on the studs, springs etc. I still have to fire mine up, but seem similar to the Edlebrock.

Is EFI really a need? It means more plumbing etc and a lot of the carbs will provide what you need. I have opted for a 670cfm Street Avenger on mine with an Air Gap RPM.

There's someone near me who does balancing and is very good, so let me know if you want his details
 
Hi All, and thanks. Maybe I have been wrong on the cam then, and the 351W firing order won't have much of an effect. Certainly frees up more options plus the supposed benefits. Promaxx heads are on the list for consideration since the castings get a good rep, but bare to avoid poor quality valvetrain parts.

I realise that the efi will make the fuel system more complex, but I can plan for that with the build. At $795 or $995 (with timing control) I get something that's self learning, self adjusting and gives me lots of info about whats going on in one unit without having to get it to a rolling road straight away. Plus, the mapping should help significantly with the emissions. Put another way, I'm not a fan of constantly fiddling with carbs!

Brett, might take you up on the balancing guy info, will see how I get on at this side of the island first though maybe. Couple of builders local to me I'm going to check out.

Not set on 350bhp really, just trying to find the point on the cost/power curve where things stop being cheap performance and start getting expensive quickly. Ie fairly stock bottom end, maybe with flat top pistons, aftermarket heads and mild cam kind of thing. One benefit we have is our 95/99 RON fuel over here, so can bump up the compression ratio a bit. Probably going 10-1.5:1 I guess.
 

Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
Rick, let's see if my Ford memory is intact...

That would have been the factory Clevor equipped Boss 302 and Boss 351 models, right?

Cheers!

Doug

Well the last "Boss" was the '71 Boss 351. The Boss engine was detuned and became the "351 HO" for 1972. This is for US based V8 engines but...yes, the Pinto 1600 crossflow was a solid lifter pushrod engine and it went away after the '73 model year. The "Pinto two liter" OHC (with adjustable cam follower pedestals) soldiered on through 1974 to be completely replaced by the 2.3 which had hydraulic pedestals that no longer required adjustment.

Having built a 2 liter Pinto for SCCA B Sedan/Trans Am 2.5 I am very familiar with the cars.

And the 2.8/2.9 V6 was solid lifter. They almost NEVER got adjusted. Didn't say the didn't NEED adjustment, just that for some reason they seemed to run fairly quiet when out of adjustment so rarely brought into the dealership for adjustment.
 
Firing order or cam profile? I bet it does :)

Never fiddled with a carb once it was set up. Webers I've been told are more finicky.

Nope, not with 180° headers as per dwg in other post.... It does make a difference in 'normal' side for side headers as fitted to damn near everything else since the uneven firing pulse pattern swaps from bank to bank with the firing order change.
You can grind the same profile of the cam on either firing order.
There is one other change you should make which I hope you and your engine builder did not forget, if you forgot then your going to be a very unhappy chappy:)!!!
 

Mike

Lifetime Supporter
Please share as I don't wish to be an unhappy chappy :)

I agree firing order would have little if any impact but I think cam profile and lifter type will affect the tone of an engine.
 
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