Aerodynamic Data for GT40s

[Ron Earp]

There are a few lawyers lurking around on the forum maybe one could help out. I'll ask my buddy too about it. I don't mind hosting them at all, bandwidth is not a problem, but legal issues could be. Don't want to be shut down or slapped with a lawsuit out of the blue.

Worst case they could be scanned and emailed as PDFs to members. Best case scanned as PDFs and hosted here for all to download.

Ron

[Straight 8 Racing]

Originally Posted by Ron Earp

Are these under copyright?

Ron,

I have some information that may be suitable for this thread but wanted you to review it first before I sent it out, is there an email address I could send to you ?

Iain

[Dean Lampe]

I am not a lawyer, however I do settle disputes around the house from time to time. I would post the info. I really don't think you have much to worry about with 40-50 year old stuff if the publisher isn't even in business.

[CliffBeer]

Brief answer on this one....

I'm an experienced corp attorney in addition to a chief financial officer and cpa so I have some knowledge in the area. Copyright law is complex. The duration of the protection is dependent on a number of variables (date of origination, renewal, type, fair use, etc.) and can be between 14 years and almost indefinitely. That assumes that the intellectual property (IP) in question can be copyrighted at all (not everything can be copyrighted even if it's an original work).

Based upon the above data I would guess that the original owners has protection for an initial 14 years. Then, if they were still in business and wanted to spend the money, they could renew the copyright for another 14 years - who knows whether this happened or not. You can go to the USPTO website and do searches if you're a really determined type. My guess is that this IP is no longer protected, in the public domain and freely usable. But, don't sue me...

Hope that's helpful. Great data!

ps. re: drag/lift, I've found that the really important data is the data that's generated in dynamic conditions (down the bumpy back straight at 150) rather than in a wind tunner. Even with very light lift number on the front axle at speed in static form, this can turn into dramatic lift with a bump in the road in the real world - best example is the flying mercedes of some years ago at LeMans. These cars generated significant downforce fore and rear in a static setting but went airborne easily as front suspension settings (and underbody shape) allowed a high pressure pocket to form even on a modest bump in the road. Yikes. That'll wake you up.

[Mike Drew]

Originally Posted by Dlampe

I am not a lawyer, however I do settle disputes around the house from time to time. I would post the info. I really don't think you have much to worry about with 40-50 year old stuff if the publisher isn't even in business.

...and, the out-of-business publisher (LONG out-of-business I suspect) was in Italy, fercryinoutloud....

[M.B]

Hi,
Just a note...
I put in a pic in the gallery, and here it goes again...
These volumes of Style Auto was made into a book(concerning the GT40..)
By the same Author:Karl Ludvigsen
The Story of the fastest Fords.
Cheers

[Mike Drew]

Even though it's out of print, it's apparently available from Amazon, and it would make sense to spend $50 to buy a single book containing just what you are interested in, versus spending $150-200 buying three books to get the same information (although the original volumes are fascinating, and if you like cars generally, you might find the expense worthwhile....)

Thanks for pointing out the Ludvigson book!

[Ron Earp]

Originally Posted by Iain Pretty

Ron,

I have some information that may be suitable for this thread but wanted you to review it first before I sent it out, is there an email address I could send to you ?

Iain

You can PM me or send me email by clicking on my profile. Thanks,

Ron

[Bob Childress]

There is a story about a chemist named Wohler who was the first to sensitize an organic compound and is reported to have said: “Urea I found it.” The joke here is of course a paraphrase of the California gold rush exclamation “Eureka I found it.”

I can’t top that so I will just say that it looks like we have now found all three volumes of Style Auto with aerodynamic test results but until we actually read the articles we will not know if they are really factual and have useful information. A few small tweaks to the beautiful MKI body may be sufficient but I can imagine some cars going whole hog.

In addition “The Ford GT: New Vehicle Engineering and Technical History of the GT-40” has also been acquired. It has the seven original SAE papers from the 1960's about the development of the original Ford GT40.

In a few weeks we may actually “know what we know.” I received emails from car guys on three continents with search suggestions and book references. Thanks to every one who help track down these books. Now the question is who wants first hand information and how to discriminate.

[Keith Hardy]

Originally Posted by bchildress

The joke here is of course a paraphrase of the California gold rush exclamation “Eureka I found it.”

And there was me thinking all this time that it was Archimedes.....

Damn!

[Lynn]

I have a copy of the Ludvigsen book and here is the information it contains concerning editions and copyright:

1st Ed 1970; 1st Reprint 1971; 2nd Reprint 2001;
with the agreement of the Author and Copyright Holder

© Style Auto Editrice snc
Corso Adriatico 26 - 10129 Torino (Italy)

The only tabular aero info I found was on the Mk II (7 configurations) and the Mk IV (25 configurations). There are some qualitative statements about the Mk I, but the only quantitative information was about an early developmental nose that absorbed 76HP @ 200mph in testing by Shelby and Ford Aeronutronics at Newport Beach, CA.

Lynn

[Bob Childress]

The information added by Lynn about the copyrights on Karl Ludvigsen’s work means that it cannot be copied and reproduced on the forum without his permission. However the key book with the Style Auto articles is still available from:

Karl Ludvigsen
“The Inside Story of the Fastest Fords”
The Design and Development of the Ford GT Racing Cars
Bentley Stock Number: H653
ISBN: 1-903088-12-7
Price: $52.95

Likewise the “The Ford GT: New Vehicle Engineering and Technical History of the GT-40” is available from SAE.

This limits us to discussing the information on the forum. I wonder if Karl would join the discussion?

[Lynn]

Here is Karl's contact info (no email posted or I would have done that):

Karl Ludvigsen
Scoles Gate, Hawkedon
Bury St Edmunds
Suffolk IP29 4AU
United Kingdom
+44 (1284) 789246

Any of our Brit Brothers in the area that would like to contact him??

[CliffBeer]

If it is of any help in sourcing information/data, I believe Karl L. can be contacted through Hemmings Classic Car - he's a contributing editor I believe. I think he was a PR guy for Ford in the 60s or 70s.

[Richard O'Clery]

Maybe a valid real world check could be done if someone has some data logging gear and linear transducers.

The idea would be to accelerate from below say 80mph (ie where there is minimal aero effect from the body shape) down a long smooth straight with the transducers measuring opening and or closing of one of the front and rear shock absorbers. You would need to be able to ignore data from bumps, but it would be easy to detect, say, a trend in increasing increase in front shock length with speed. If this happens you are getting front end lift, etc.

Then the fun begins - experimenting with rake, canards, rear wings, diffusers etc to keep the front down while maximizing rear downforce (keeping Mercedes at Le Mans in mind too, of course).

A cheaper way of seeing if you have downforce is to put some tape (ie electrical) around the shock absorber shaft at a measured position and see if it has been pushed up by the barrel after your run. This may indicate downforce compressing the suspension. Good on a really smooth track with gentle acceleration. Any pothole, hard application of brakes or rear squat could ruin the experiment.

Anyone game to try these out?

[ChrisL]

Originally Posted by [B

bchildress[/b]] The joke here is of course a paraphrase of the California gold rush exclamation “Eureka I found it.”

Originally Posted by Keith1

And there was me thinking all this time that it was Archimedes.....

Damn!

I believe he may have been referring to the ancient Greek gold rush of Kefallonia where Archimedes was once said to have visited

[Keith Hardy]

Originally Posted by chrisl

I believe he may have been referring to the ancient Greek gold rush of Kefallonia where Archimedes was once said to have visited

Ah, perhaps that was where he discovered his Principal then, whilst panning in a pool?

[M.B]

Originally Posted by Mike Drew

Even though it's out of print, it's apparently available from Amazon, and it would make sense to spend $50 to buy a single book containing just what you are interested in, versus spending $150-200 buying three books to get the same information (although the original volumes are fascinating, and if you like cars generally, you might find the expense worthwhile....)

Thanks for pointing out the Ludvigson book!

You´re welcome !
Just trying to help out...
Regards,