How far from the cage?

J. Salmon · 12-30-08, 09:35 AM

If you are driving on the road with no helmet, you do not want your head to be able to contact any part of the roll cage. How far would you say you need to be? I think you can move around a LOT in an impact. The RCR has the center bars near the roof, and bars across the top edge of the windscreen, but no side bars.

Since I am getting ready to final fit the dash, this is the time where I need to be certain that I actually want to keep the cage. The car will never be a race car, and I spec'd it with the cage for safety. It would be ironic if I actually made it more dangerous. It would also be easy at this point to go to a standard roll hoop and ditch the cage.

I plan to sit down and take a good look at the interior, but opinions and concerns would be greatly appreciated.

Charlie M · 12-30-08, 09:48 AM

Do you have room for padding on the tubes your head may contact? That may be an option rather than ditching the cage.

Charlie

Randy V · 12-30-08, 11:56 AM

If you can strap yourself in and have your head come within 2 inches of the cage, you'll ned to get yourself some good padding (SFI rated is best)..

Mike Pass · 12-30-08, 01:30 PM

Keep the cage! It will stiffen the chassis. If something like a truck hits you I think it's better to let the cage handle it than your head. Potentially a lot more serious than bumping your head on the cage. However all roll cages should be padded with good quality (preferably fire retardant race quality stuff) foam not pipe lagging.
Be safe.
Cheers
Mike

Tim Kay · 12-30-08, 01:49 PM

Pad it if your concerned. If your head is going to hit the cage then it may hit the spider as well. Another 2" of clearance may not make a difference in an impact and I'd rather have the cage protection

Pat Buckley · 12-30-08, 02:20 PM

Pad it anyway.

An impact with the cage in a relatively minor wreck could lead to brain leakage.

Dean Lampe · 12-30-08, 10:52 PM

I have used some of the SFI padding in my car but that stuff seems pretty hard. I realize it isn't as hard as the bare steel would be but will it really protect a bare skull or is it designed to be used with a helmet?

Jac Mac · 12-31-08, 06:11 AM

Tough call, if your head is actually very close to the cage & the cage is padded then you are less likely to suffer injury than if its say 4 or five inches away. Try it, hold your fist 1" from a concrete wall , then hit the wall with all force available---didnt really hurt did it?. Now hold your fist 12" from the wall & repeat the process----is there any blood?

Time-speed-distance.

J. Salmon · 12-31-08, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jac mac

Tough call, if your head is actually very close to the cage & the cage is padded then you are less likely to suffer injury than if its say 4 or five inches away. Try it, hold your fist 1" from a concrete wall , then hit the wall with all force available---didnt really hurt did it?. Now hold your fist 12" from the wall & repeat the process----is there any blood?

Time-speed-distance.

Not sure I agree with this. If your head is 4-5 inches away and the belts prevent you from hitting it, then it's not even an impact. If it is 2 inches away and the belts have some slack...
Belts feel rigid, but they are not, and the "give" is instrumental in decelerating you safely. I guess what I am looking for is how much do the belts really give?

Your analagy is based on the fact that you are unable to accelerate your hand in 1 inch. In an accident, your head is already moving, and the cage is decelerated by the impact. Plus, the forces are a smidge higher

Dean, how far is you head with no helmet from the middle bars?

EGLITOM · 12-31-08, 11:10 AM

Pretty easy desicion from my point of view.

Actually you are already assuming a crash. So would you have a crash rather with the cage or not. I would rather have it with the cage, because it gives you more overall protection. Now all you need is to minimize the harm the cage can do, by pading it correctly and installing and USING 6 point race safety belts.

TOM

Pat Buckley · 12-31-08, 03:18 PM

If you are going to have all that steel tubing in the car with you there is only one real option - wear a helmet!

Is it a race car or not - it can't be both.

Randy V · 12-31-08, 05:31 PM

I believe that it can be padded sufficiently with SFI 45.1 padding, that you will be well protected.;

View Roll Bar Padding \\ Roll Bar Padding at http://www.apexperformance.net

The SFI does not just rate this padding to endure multiple impacts from helmets. It's also to protect flailing appendages such as arms, legs, hands and feet.

I reject the notion that the car can't be a hybrid (Racecar that's streetable and street driven).. The originals did not have rollcages, but they also had steel spiders and their rear bulkheads were integral with the tub. That's a lot more protection than a fiberglass spider and square steel (in the case of most replicas) rear bulkhead support system.
I'm building a cage for mine - but even if it were not to be used for occasional track and instruction usage, I would still be building the cage..

Pat Buckley · 12-31-08, 06:08 PM

You can reject that notion all you want, but the fact is that when you try to build a hybrid race/street car you end up with something that doesn't do either thing particularly well.

Of course a cage does look good in front of the A&W......

So, I guess I reject your notion!

chuck smith · 12-31-08, 07:33 PM

I am pretty sure the accepted advice from experts is not to have an exposed cage in a street car unless you wear a helmet. I do not see one doing much except in a roll over situation anyway.

Al Jones · 01-01-09, 01:17 AM

On the street - Think about that truck starting to back up and he doesn't see you back there;or the guy in back of you in the Suburban who doesn't quite stop in time and pushes you under the truck.Or stuffing the car,God forbid,under an Armco barrier/highway rail.If your spider is fiberglass,pressed steel or even composite,I think I'd want the cage there to keep everything from crushing into the back firewall before it stopped! I did not want a cage initially but changed my mind.I'll pad the tubes and take my chances on a bruised forehead.Ask the guys who make these cars what they have in their own street car.

Jac Mac · 01-01-09, 01:36 AM

My earlier post was not in relation to a head-on type incident, but the one that is far more likely to occur under track-day or public highway operation. I think we can take it as given that 'most' owners of these cars are unlikely to get into a situation where a head-on is likely of their own doing ( David Briggs might disagree- hope you folk are well on the way to a full recovery David.)
The more likely scenario is one where you spin out of control & hit a barrier whilst traveling sideways, or get t-boned at an intersection by another vehicle and either you or your passengers head will contact the two fore/aft bars at the center of the spider or if you have them fitted ,those immediately outboard of your heads. These are the bars that will put you in cuckoo land even with belts fitted.

Dean Lampe · 01-01-09, 11:30 AM

My head is 4.5 inches from the center bar. If I try to lean in and hit the bar, my head goes under it as I lean over. The same goes for the front bar. It seems on impact that my head will be flung under the cage, although it would be possible to make contact. I am going to take some small clearance SFI foam and put it on the bars to see what it looks like.

Al Jones · 01-01-09, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jac mac

The more likely scenario is one where you spin out of control & hit a barrier whilst traveling sideways, or get t-boned at an intersection by another vehicle and either you or your passengers head will contact the two fore/aft bars at the center of the spider or if you have them fitted ,those immediately outboard of your heads. These are the bars that will put you in cuckoo land even with belts fitted.

Jac - been in both the side and head on(twice) and I've got to say that the side collision caused more injury so you have a good point.My feeling is that the car being so low,it is vulnerable to both and I want something more than just the 'glass spider to resist crushing the cabin.
A.J.

Randy V · 01-01-09, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2124

You can reject that notion all you want, but the fact is that when you try to build a hybrid race/street car you end up with something that doesn't do either thing particularly well.

Of course a cage does look good in front of the A&W......

So, I guess I reject your notion!

And I think you and everyone else will agree that as a Road ONLY car, the GT40 replica is far less comfortable than a Crown Victoria or even a Mustang.. That given, the GT40 Replica built for Road ONLY is a compromise at best in terms of practicality and safety.

So while you can say that you reject my notion here on this thread - I bring forth no notions whatsoever - just facts. And I am also conveying what I am doing and recommend that others do to address some safety concerns..

FACT: These cars (all of them) need better rollover protection.

One of the reasons RCR's cars stood out from the others was the fact that they come with a Chromoly 1.5" Roll-bar structure and also have optional roll cages that can be factory built and installed.

Still - Whether the car is in competition or on the street - They can all benefit from the addition of a Roll-bar, if not a Roll-Cage - AND - they will all need to be padded wherever it's possible for human extremities to come in contact with it. I recommend and use the SFI or FIA approved padding because they are tested to a standard. None of the other padding is.

Kalun D · 01-01-09, 12:45 PM

You have to weigh the options. You can argue against seat belts because sometimes people are killed because they are held in place. But statistically you have a better chance with them.

Hard to say what is safer, roll bars protecting or hurting, may depend how you drive. Repeating what's already been said, if you have roll bars they should be padded. Even 4 inches clearance may not be enough, maybe some Nascar engineer can weigh in. It's not the belts stretching so much as the body contorting.

The SFI foam seems hard without a helmet but it's probably safe compared to not having it.

Roll bars have other benefits. A fiberglass spider is not strong enough to fully support the windshield. People pull on the top of the A pillar to get in and out and the glass can break. (Not sure if this applies with RCR, seem to remember a pic of Fran standing on his spider).