EFI Versus Carburettor...

Hi all,

Being something of a newbie to all things V8 related, can you guys please give me some advice.

I want to get my engine sorted in the next few months (as the pounds slowly roll into my bank accout). I plan for it to be around 400 BHP, which is plenty for street use, and I would also like to run around 5 to 6,ooo miles per year, both for motorway slogging and for around town use.

So.... Do I go EFI, or Carb'ed???

What are the advantages of either system, and if you guys know, what are the general costs involved.

Also, and lastly, If I go EFI, do you guys have any piccies of the system on top of your engines, i.e., can it still look relatively authentic?

Thanks for all your help,

Graham.
 
Now that is a very, very broad question. On the whole EFI is better than carbs.

Now for the nitty gritty. A complete EFI system for a ford 302 with eight throttle bodies (so it looks like weber carbs) will set you back about £3000, a four barrel holly will set you back about £500.

If your engine is post 96, you will need EFI due to emissions, other wise you can fit a carb. For fuel economy, drive-ability, emissions, power and adaptability an EFI system is better than a carb system. For cost, simplicity, and authenticity a carb system is better than EFI (although some might disagree with simplicity)

So, you pay your money and takes your choice. I decided to go EFI due to the flexibility it offers and because fuel isn't going to get any cheaper. I can imagine a time when its going to cost £300 to fill one of these things up and I want power with fuel economy.

There is much more to it than that, but it gives you a flavour of the arguments for or against.
 

Mike Pass

Supporter
How deep are your pockets? You say you want 400hp but is your motor a 302, 351 or a 347 type stroker. To get 400hp from a 302 it would need to be fairly well tuned and might be getting a bit cammy for road use. Also make sure you are talking about real dyno or rolling road hp not that imaginary stuff that some people sell. My 302 gives a genuine 335hp is very torquey and is not slow - it keeps up with some "400+hp" cars!

On the carb v. efi topic the efi will win out in the end but at some cost in time and parts.
The carb route would be a 650cfm Holley which can be bought new at about £300 or second hand for a lot less but there are alot of mismatched and worn out carbs out there but some good stuff does come up sometimes. You will need an inlet manifild - a double plane one is best for road use. An Edelbrock Performer RPM is a good road one or the Air Gap one is even better (+15hp) or equivalent make eg Weiand. Check prices from USA or Real Steeletc. over here. The fuel feed to the carb is easy with a pump and filter/regulator from each tank with a switch to swap pumps between tanks and a ball valve in the connecting point to the carb feed so the fuel does not just pump from one tank to the other.

OR the famous quad weber setup. Same fuel system as a Holley. Needs a Quad IDA manifold and quad Weber IDAs. Cost £3,500.


EFi is a different story. Thre are two ways to do the inlet manifold. You can use a normal carb inlet manifold and put on a 4 barrel throttle body. (Holley and Accel do them).
Or the fancy 8 inlet quad weber style manifold with 8 throttle bodies which mimic the original setup. These are quite expensive as you can imagine. The manifolds are about £800 and the throttle bodies vary in price quite a bit (Jenvey, TWM, AT etc. supply them)
You will need 8 injectors and an ecu and a wiring loom to connect it all together. Ecus can be got from Megasquirt, DTA, Motec, etc.
The fuel side can get a bit complicated as you will need swirl pot to collect the fuel from the tanks, a high pressure pump and regulator to feed the fuel rail and arrange for the unused fuel from the rail to go back to the tank it came from. The ability to switch tanks is essential also. The setup for this can be done in different ways. Most people use a low pressure swirl pot system and then feed the high pressure side from this. A good size swirl pot is needed. I priced up a complete setup with DTA and a very nice manifold and it was about £7,000 all in inc setup time.

Both the carb setup and the EFi setup will need dyno or rolling road time to get them right or you will be wasting a lot of money on fancy parts that won't deliver. My best deal was one hour to nearly double the power! This is not cheap but is the best hp per £ you can buy. You also get to see for real what it is producing on the readout/graph. The carb setup will be quicker than the efi depending on how close the original guess setup is. A carb should take up to 3 hours and efi up to 4/5 hours.

To sum up...
CARB - Cheap, cheerful, easy to fit and setup. Easy to fix. Carbs don't like big cams at low rpm. Not pretty. £1,000

Quad carbs - Quite expensive. harder to setup and balance than a Holley ( 8 of everything so can get expensive on jets etc.). Sound and look great/original. In theory give more power but only when set up right. £4,000

EFI - Complicated, expensive. Looks fantastic. Can you fix it? Works really well when setup properly £7,000

This is all a bit approximate but hopefully helps a bit.

Cheers
MIke
 
Whoaaa..... Thats a lot to take in in one go fellas :) but keep it coming.

I am not sure as to which engine to go for as yet, but if I go for the Ford route, it will definitely be a stroker (347 or 351, I'm not sure of the advantages between the two, and that's a whole new thread :) ).

Are there any cheaper EFI options that still look relatively authentic (i.e looks like a four barrel if you see what I mean) as I can't stomach £7,000 for a fuel system. I'm keen to explore the EFI option, for the same reason that you have it Mike - fuel ain't getting any cheaper, and I want a car that will start everytime I turn the key (well, almost).

Cheers guys.

Graham.
 
Oh, and Mike, I should have said that I have had tanks made that can be joined, and this is the route I will be taking, so from the fuel pump back to the tanks is made simpler.

Cheers,

Graham.
 
I priced up an EFI system form Dave Walker at Emerald. The PDF he sent me was for a Rover system but he stated the Ford system would be about the same price.

Things to bear in mind are that this did not include an inlet manifold (£900 from webcon or £600 from the states) or any of the swirl pot, fuel return valve, fuel pump or set up. But I would still expect to bring the total system in at under £3500.
 

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Hi Graham

I used the Edelbrock ProFlow EFI. It comes as a kit including manifold and distributor. Here are the details as available from Sumit

Steve
 

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Or MassFlo EFI. It looks like a standard 4 barrel. We have it on the Cobra. Runs fantastic, and was not that much more expensive than carb if you plan ahead. Started the car up two days ago cold after coming off a trailer, temp below freezing, fired right up on the first turn and settled into a nice idle.

I have 8 throttle body Kinsler. It's pretty impressive, but it was in line with the pricing listed for stack-type EFI. I bought it before the economy went south.
 
Graham,
I am going the carb route for cost and trying to get the car on the road quicker. I have had the tanks designed to take a return at a later date. So when I have more money I can upgrade later, my primary goal now is to get to IVA ASAP before they change anymore rules!!

As said before you will also have to factor in the system, as well as additonal pumps, returns, swirl pots etc and a bit more plumbing.

I am using a Holey Street Avenger 670cfm with an Edelbrock RPM airgap manifold run off carter pumps and a regulator. That is it. Admittadly it will probably be another month or so before I fire it up for the first time.

Brett
 
Sorry I forgot to say, it can also come down to the look as well. As Steve B says he has the Proflow, but this mimicks a carb setup but with EFI. If you want the look, you will have to go for stacks.

Brett
 
Hi Graham

I used the Edelbrock ProFlow EFI. It comes as a kit including manifold and distributor. Here are the details as available from Sumit

Steve

Steve, thats an interesting shout. Excuse me if appear thick, but do I still need to get throttle bodies etc... to finish the kit off??

Thanks for your help,

Graham.
 
Graham,
I am going the carb route for cost and trying to get the car on the road quicker. I have had the tanks designed to take a return at a later date. So when I have more money I can upgrade later, my primary goal now is to get to IVA ASAP before they change anymore rules!!

As said before you will also have to factor in the system, as well as additonal pumps, returns, swirl pots etc and a bit more plumbing.

I am using a Holey Street Avenger 670cfm with an Edelbrock RPM airgap manifold run off carter pumps and a regulator. That is it. Admittadly it will probably be another month or so before I fire it up for the first time.

Brett

Brett,

I here you loud and clear on that... I worry about new IVA stuff sneaking in aswell. There is definitely method in your madness. It may also pan out that I go for a straight 4 barrel setup initially, and switch to EFI later...

I also worry about the state of my bank account....constantly :):):)

Graham.
 
Hello All,
have got a load of info on this subject, Accel, TWM, Dynaformance etc.
Trouble is, thats our business and after all the fuss yesterday about advertising on the forum I am not sure if I would be allowed to post, could somebody advise please
Mike
 

Randy V

Moderator-Admin
Staff member
Admin
Lifetime Supporter
Hello All,
have got a load of info on this subject, Accel, TWM, Dynaformance etc.
Trouble is, thats our business and after all the fuss yesterday about advertising on the forum I am not sure if I would be allowed to post, could somebody advise please
Mike

Hi Mike,

Offering assistance on the forum and advertising to sell one's services or products are distinctly different.. If you can render assistance here - please be our guest..

Thanks for thinking to ask where in doubt..
:thumbsup:
 
Graham
The kit has all you need to set up the system, the manifold and four barrel throttle body is included.
If you link the tanks with adequate size pipe avoiding creating a loop/hump that prevents gravity cross flow the simple one pump and return system can work OK. It gets a lot more complex if you want to feed from two tanks independently<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" /><o:p></o:p>
There is still the issue of pulling air into the system on downhill situations with low fuel level if the pickup is at the rear of the tank. A swirlpot is one way of preventing the problem for a short period.<o:p></o:p>
I was happy to have the appearance of a carb type layout as the car is a MkII that didn't use the 4xd/d Webbers.<o:p></o:p>
The IVA emissions may be easier to meet with the EFI system; my set up passed the SVA, even though the cam is a bit extreme. I would be very careful with cam selection. I regret my burst of Horsepower Vanity! I lost a lot in drivability<o:p></o:p>
Steve <o:p></o:p>
<I><o:p></o:p></I>
 
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Graham, You're avatar sums up how I'm feeling right now. I've had my GT40 for about 9 months and I run a 347 stroker with 4 44IDF's on top. Like others have already said they look and sound fantastic. BUT....I've yet to get the car to run the way it should for very long and it frustrates the hell outta me. My input, the Holley is inexpensive and easy to maintain. The webers are fantastic and a bit pricey and can be high (very high!) maintenance. (But if you have a local Weber "expert" then I'd go with them.) But if you don't have a local expert think hard about the webers. If cost were not an object I'd go with the EFI with the Weber look. Very Pricey though. My head hurts when I think about all I've done to get my engine right but the spitting and backfiring has left me feeling empty and drained. The car now sits in my garage, untouched.
 
Hello again,
first I must come clean and tell you that I build American engines for a living so my comments might not seem entirely unbiased. Also all this IVA emissions stuff is a UK/Europe only problem, but problem it is and it's going to get worse if Brussels has its way.
I have been using EFI on some of our engines for three or four years now so have found the previous comments interesting and the price ranges VERY interesting.
If you are going the EFI route in the UK for a new build then you must have emissions checks foremost in the picture, OK, more power, better response, better starting hot and cold and A LOT better economy but all no use if it won't pass an emissions test.
Unless you can do a lot of the specing, building, wiring etc yourself then go for one of the "plug and play" everything in one box kits. Some can be fairly limited in their capabilities. The Mass-Flow system was mentioned, it works fine if you get the engine combo right , but the trouble is it's "self learning" and if the parts combination isn't right then you will never get it to run correctly. They use a stock '88 Mustang ECM so if you need the map altering it has to go back to be "re burned" , OK if you live in the US, not so good in the UK.It was mentioned that the cost bore comparison to a carb and manifold but at $3000 for the kit, you must have some very expensive carbs in the US !
The Edelbrock Pro Flo 2 that was mentioned, again works well but we know of one manufacturer here in the UK that had major problems with the IVA emissions and gave up with the system. The Edelbrock is not self learning but the calibration capabilities are limited when it comes to fine tune, also it HAS to use 302 firing order, no 351 firing order roller cams etc. Both those kits are the four barrel throttle body types with multi port injection, come complete with distributor pumps etc. They take a standard air cleaner so look "vintage"

Holley are bringing out some new kits later this year, we have the demo software and it looks like it's aimed at late model US stuff. The old style Commander kits are now obsolete but some warehouses are still selling them, so look out.
We use the Accel DFI kits which, again, are complete and come with like the others, the manifold, distributor and ignition box etc, fully sequential, wide band and all the good stuff. It's far and away the most adaptable in terms of tune and we can guarantee to get even the most fruity of V8s through a CAT or regular emissions test. Prices have been mentioned on this thread for other kits so I wll say that the Accel kit for a 302 goes for arround the £2650 mark for the four barrel, depending on spec.
If you want the 8 stack look then we do the TWM,( www.twminduction.com) and for the real "Webber look" have a look at www.dynaformance.com The TWM we find is better for higher power engines as it comes with up to 50mm throttle bodies and are shorter, the Dynaformance has definately got the "look" but only comes in 48mm.
The Dynaformance electronics, as it comes, are awfull so we have had ours converted to Accel fully sequential. Accel did all the work and mapping on the Roush IR motors that use TWM so we know it works well and have adapted it for the UK regs. So there are no crazy theories on pricing, can I say that they both sell, complete, for arround £5000 depending on spec, the TWM a bit less.
If you want to go the four barrel carburretor route,Brett mentioned the Holley "Street Avenger", we have found these to be the cleanest four barrel arround so can recomend those from an IVA point of view.
Webbers, for IVA, it must be IDF but for pre '75 you will get away with IDA but for how much longer. To dispel the myth they go for about £2250 complete, both types. (by the way,all the above don't include any tax)
Hope this has been of help, Mike
 
A couple of years ago I had the manifold to put the Weber's on,
and finally decided that I couldn't afford the Weber's.
So sold the manifold, and planed on running a single 4 barrel.
But a couple of weeks ago I ran across an old 60's 6 pack.
An old Offy manifold with 6 Stromberg 94's on it.
Picked it up from a guy that had an old Kurtis sprint car.
Might be a little weird looking, but what the hell !
I'll have fun messing with it !
And can always go back to the 4 barrel set up.
Check it out !

Cheer's !

Curtis
 

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Mike Pass

Supporter
Just a quick comment on the linked fuel tanks. If you link them and the tanks are full and you park the car tilted to the side fuel will drain from one side to the other - which is already full.......
Also if there is only the driver in the car I only fill the left hand tank to help even out the balance side to side.
The issue of weight has not been mentioned much on the engine spec. The 351 blocks are a fair bit heavier than the 302 size. I don't have a weight for the 351 block but the 302 weighs 150lbs. 351s also have a very big main journal size which is not beneficial if you want a revvy motor as the bearing speed can get high. A drop in weight is always good and benefits everything as well as get up and go. Incidentally if you put alloy heads on instead of iron you lose 44 pounds of weight off the top of the engine which must do good things to the centre of gravity. As you have a 302 exhaust system I guess a 330 or 347 is the way to go. Stroker kits are not too costly and come with steel crank and rods and forged pistons etc.
If you want to avoid emission issues an early block is a good idea. Check the block carefully (use a good engine builder to check and machine for you). The engine strength can be helped by fitting a main cap girdle. Ford small block motor cranks are actually out of balance and are brought back into balance overall by fitting an out of balance flywheel and front damper. If you use high revs this out of balance will give the block a good shaking. This however can be avoided if you build it up with a neutral balance. The method of achieving this can be by having heavy slugs put in the crank webs or if you pick the right steel crank it can be achieved by removing weight from the crank ( you need light steel rods such as eagle I-section rods( H-section are heavier) and light forged pistons) Check Martin Gough's Southern GT No 8 build thread for details. I can't remember which Eagle stroker crank was used but Eagle website and Real Steel said it couldn't be done! It was in fact very easy to get it neutral balanced and the engine is sweet as a nut - no vibration at all - a really nice 347ci. 420 hp on a 650cfm holley.

Cheers
Mike
 
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