Water Pump Issues AGAIN!

I have CAV # 82 and need info and advise from other early CAV owners or any owners who may be having this issue or using this type of water pump. I'm replacing my 2nd Ford Racing Water Pump (WP) in less than 1000 miles. I'm using Ford Racing Part # M-8501-E351S. I have a Ford 302 motor stroked to 347 with webers. Its a V Belt application and my motor rotates in a clockwise direction. I believe the block is from the mid to late 70's. (It has the two piece rear main seal if that helps). The first WP failed after less than 1000 miles when the WP impellar came away from the shaft. The second WP began to leak after less than 500 miles so I pulled it again and found the circular metal piece that is tact welded to the impellar had come off and was swimming around inside the housing. It had left a 3-4" gash inside the housing from rotating inside the backing plate. I think the pressure caused one of the backing plate screws to seep water causing the leak. When I spoke to Ford they reported no issues from users of this pump but added and bascially admitted this pump is really not geared for this type of use. His words "Its made for Hot Rods who just "cruise" but don't run their cars fast. I purchased the part from Summit and they are going to replace the WP or give me a full refund. (A BIG TIME KUDOS TO THEM!!) (Summit told me Ford would not have warranteed the part.)

Its my understanding most of us are "cornered" into using short necked or shafted WP's and my research indicates this part might be my only option for a WP although I spoke to Stewart Waterpumps this a.m. and they are looking to see if they can help.

The GT40 communitiy is invaluable when needing input for this type of issue. Any help is appreciated. Am I the only person using this type of WP and having these failures?

My
 
Jim ,i have a edelbrock water pump on my cav 1400 miles no issues ,had all the correct mounting bosses for the ac bracket and alt, i think there around 150.00
hope this helps
regards Bob
 
It happened to my car last year, Impeller broke away from hub. I called Ford about it and said they had never heard of this, but sent me a new pump at no charge!
Randy
 
Bob, What was the part number of the Edelbrock?

RagRod....God I'm thankful you said you've also had the same problem....I was beginning to think I was the only lucky guy. Have you had any other issues since.

Anyone else having issues with this part. Please Advise.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
My edelbrock (Alum victor series) did the same thing. Shaft spun on the impeller. I called them and they said that they had never have had that happen before. Sure............ I bought another one because everything on the front of the motor is custom made. We'll see if it happens again.

I think that the high sustained revs at the track is the problem. If I have this happen again then I will be going to different pump manufacturer. We'll see. Any of you race guys have a preference. Jac Mack......
 

Kevin Box

Supporter
Gents

In a past life I was involved with Jet-Boat racing using a 351 Windsor Cleveland combo and had the same problem.
Simple solution is to drop you pump speed. In our case where we were running at 6500 for extended periods we dropped the pump speed to 50% of crank speed and our temps dropped also. This suggests to me that the pump was in fact cavitating at higher speeds.
Possible cause for your early failures also ??
You must remember these pumps were designed for going to the shops or highway cruising with less than 3000 RPM.
If you head down this track for a race car the only thing to be careful of is that your idle pump speed is still doing the job and will recover a hot engine.
To achieve this I used Peterson HTD pulleys and made a custom alternator pulley.
It is worth mentioning that the SVO pumps had severely cut down impellers for the same reason.

Hope this helps

KevinB
 
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Thanks to those that responded. Just a follow up. I'll be ordering a Stewart Waterpump. They are making one for me as we speak. I spoke to a few people who specialize in Ford motors and many said they've not heard of this type of problem. Some thought the problem was due to a "bad batch." I guess anything is possible. Summit Racing will refund my money and I'll use that to buy the new pump which hopefully will cure the issues once and for all. The Stewart pump is about $100.00 more than the Ford pump. I just felt in speaking to Ford's Rep that I wasn't convinced by his "this pump is just for cruising and not for running at high sustained speeds" thus the reason for the switch. The Stewart pump eliminates the heater tubes also. No biggy for me since winter driving in Florida is never that bad. I'd thought of the cavitaition issue also. I've got my fingers crossed this pump will solve my problems.
 

Kevin Box

Supporter
I checked out the Stewart pumps website and they seem the business OK.
I think it would be worth telling them what your max RPM is and getting them to suggest what reduction you should use for the pump.
In their stage 4 info they say 4500 RPM and I know this would not be Engine RPM.

Good luck with the new pump.

KB
 

Kevin Box

Supporter
:idea:Jim


I'd be keen to hear what they say - seems it may solve a lot of other peoples questions as well


regards

KB
 
Well, just lost another water pump impeller,My second failure. They last 1 1/2 years, or 5-6 track days. I've allready slowed it down, but perhaps not enough. I heard this one start to make noise,so I caught it with no overheat, lucky. 5-6k RPM kills them.
I think I'm done with the Ford Motorsport Pump!
Randy
 

Randy V

Moderator-Admin
Staff member
Admin
Lifetime Supporter
Randy - I've had really good results with Bosch water pumps on past racecars.. I think the last one I picked up was either Pep Boys or Auto Zone.
 
RagRod, I'm almost pleased to hear you say that. But not in a bad way. I'm sorry to hear of the break but happy since I was really thinking it had something to do with my engine or the installation and I've paid close atteention to the way I installed the last one. I'm going with the Stewart Components Stage 3 pump which should arrive next week. I'll keep you posted.
 

Kevin Box

Supporter
Jim

Hows progreess with your water pump??
Did you get an answer out of Stewarts ???

Keen to know you have solved your issues ??


regards KevinB:laugh:
 
Kevin & other interested members: Here's what I now know. The Stewart Pump is heavier and a much sturdier all-round unit. It does weigh more than the Ford Unit. If weights a concern this isn't the pump for you. The internals are MUCH sturdier and robust and confident inspiring. Overall based on looks and build quality I'll take the few extra pounds and take the Stewart unit once a day and twice on Sunday. I called Stewart and inquired about the reduction issue and they advised it depends on your driving. I for instance am running a 5" WP pulley which makes the WP run at higher speeds and they suspect this MIGHT have caused the Ford units to fail. I advised the type of driving I mostly do is country road, highway and some in-town and city driving at times and I run between 2-4K with spurts up to 5-6K RPM. They said my 5" pulley should be fine for their pump. I must say that during the initial test fit this past weekend I noted what I thought to be another problem which could have caused the Ford units to fail also. Belt alignment. With both units the belts do not line up perfectly. There could be as much as 3/8" difference! The belts are further forward on the WP pulley then the Alt, AC and crank pulley's. Stewart said this should not matter. It might cause uneven wear on the belt or the belt to come off (unlikely though). They advised belt tension is far more critical to the operation of their pump. They did say they would recommend a 1:1 ratio of pump to crank pulley size for many needs but reiterated I should be fine wiht what I have and my type of driving.

I'm still very interested in WP pulleys that GT40 owners are using on the Ford Racing WP unit (p/n M-8501-E351S) or any Stewart WP unit (p/n 36113 or 4) with the short neck that will fit inside the fire wall and are two grooved pulley's. As best as I can tell the new pulley I need will need the first belt groove back another 3/8" from where my current first groove ends then a 1/4" gap then the second groove if that makes sense for the belts to line up correctly. Any suggestions are appreciated. This kind of input is what makes this forum so damn good and helpful. Thanks in advance.
 
FWIW, I've got a friend who drives his 408 Windsor-powered Pantera extremely hard on the track (7500 rpm lap after lap), and he's suffered at least three or four failures of the Ford Motorsport short water pump. All the failures were the same--the impeller breaks away from the central shaft.

It seems to me there should be some way to correct this before installation????
 
Mike, tell your friend to seriously look at Stewart water pumps. It really looks the business but at present I can't speak to its perfromance because I'm still trying to complete the install.
 

Kevin Box

Supporter
Jim

Good info from the Stewart people.:thumbsup:

As for pulleys, if you have the time and money it is worth going to HTD type drive as you can overcome theses problems in the folowing manner.
1 Tensioning problems - The HTD belt is supposed to be loose enough to trap a cushion of air under it so it should not be tight. The correct way to tension them is that you should be able turn the belt 90 degrees on the longest section.

2 Alignment of an HTD belt sytem is usually only determined by only one pulley and the others are basically followers and are usually wider. The belt naturally aligns straight - no issue

I have previous used a mix of Peterson (dry sump pump people) HTD pulleys and some "Home-grown" ones for Alternator etc.

I know it is a lot of mucking around but in the end i feel it is worth the hassel.

I am about to start getting some customs done for my 40. I will post pics when complete for anyone who heads down this track later. I plan to run my pump 75% crank speed as a starting point. I will see how this works out and maybe drop the speed form there later on.:stunned:


regards KevinB
 
For those interested I wanted to complete the tale of the W/P issues I've had with CAV # 82. In the end it appears it may not have been the Ford Racing pump after all. Although in saying that I will say their short nosed pump I used is not as good as the Stewart Components part I now have on the car. The other thing about the Stewart part I'm using is that it does not have heater pipe outlets so I no longer have the heater connnected. No big deal here in FL. Sadly, it appears a finger must be pointed at the person who finished the engine and put it in the car. He performed a few short cuts. 1) the belts were never aligned correctly from one pulley to another 2) the belt lengths were off too. Two critical areas as you know. What amazes me is I did not change any of the pulley sizes but HAD to change the belts because the two that came off the engine were certainly not going back on. They were too short. I also made a trip to MARCH PERFORMANCE in Naples, FL and Bill (engineer) and Doug (sales) came to my rescue. In the end Bill made be a 1/4" spacer for my crank pulley which helped line it up with the W/P pulley and BANG I was in business. Doug did everything he could to try and find the proper W/P pulley but said "those short nosed Ford pumps are a piece March does not make pulleys for and I know of no others who make them either." GULP!

So, with the help of my neighbor (Original 1965 Ford GT 350 owner (he paid $400 for back in 1974!)) we got everything lined up, the belts back on, fluids in and all she has to be is road tested. I see no reason why the car should not perform as it should now. Thank the lord!! I'd told the people at March I have the most expensive coffee table in N. Central Florida since the car has been sitting far too long. Bill made the part at no cost and only charged me shipping. WOW!

So, for those using the short nosed Ford part....use caution as I'm still not sold on their quality, and if you have a "standard Ford or Chevy engine and need pulleys or brackets look to March Performance. A shameless plug but I feel I have too given their help. Thanks again to all those that provided input and remedies.
 
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