Fitting copper pipes together

Hi all

I've got to the point in the build where I need to put together the cooling pipes. One of the front sections has to be connected to 2 elbow joints to create an s-bend. The manual says to connect the elbow joints back to back and on Bob's Tornado he has done this as shown in the picture below.

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Is this correct, should there not be a small piece of pipe that slots in between the elbow joints to hold them together?

Also the next question is can anyone give me some pointers on connecting copper pipes with solder. I've never done it before so don't know how to do it and what tools etc I need. I was going to see if I could find a video on youtube but thought you guys could help.

Thanks

Trev
 
Apologies, I've just spotted the diagram in the build manual and indeed Bob's pipes are correct. So all I need to know is how to connect pipes together particularly these male/male sections

Trev
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
As long as all the joints are male inside female then it will be fine. If you did need to couple two males together then it would require a double female coupling. Two females would be done wiht a short piece of plain pipe between them.

Wow.........that got me a little hot just thinking about it.
 

Randy V

Moderator-Admin
Staff member
Admin
Lifetime Supporter
Trev - I would stub them with a smaller piece of tubing. Clean all surfaces well with a Scotchbrite pad or steel wool, use flux and a MAP Gas torch along with your favorite brand of Plumbing Solder...

Sweat the joints together.. Plenty of YouTube videos on how to do that..
 
I've just test fitted the pipes together using the male to male angles as shown in the manual using a bit of sellotape and they look spot on in terms of how far each end pipe is in relation to where the radiator will sit.

If I add a piece of copper pipe in between the elbows then won't it push the left pipe too far out of line with where it needs to be?

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Gregg

Gregg
Lifetime Supporter
Yes Trevor, that is what is meant. Cleanliness is the key. Clean the pipes you intend to join with emery paper (sandpaper) or a scotchbrite pad. Use flux paste on the newly cleaned pipes. Assemble, then heat either with a torch with Mapp gas or propane. Mapp gas is more expensive and burns hotter. Heat the pipe and then touch with solder. Pipes should be hot enough to melt the solder and it will wick into the joint. Do not heat the solder directly with the torch. In order to get a good solid seal, you need to get the pipes hot enough to melt the solder by themselves. Not hard by any strecth. Good luck.
 

Dwight

RCR GT 40 Gulf Livery 347 Eight Stack injection
Apply the heat the copper elbow while touching the solder to the joint (the two pieces of copper) the heat will drawn the solder into the joint. Do not apply heat (flame) to the solder or the joint where the two pieces meet, let the hot copper drawn the solder into the joint. Watch the solder flow all the way around the joint, apply solder as needed. If the copper turn black you have applied to much heat. Take the Scotchbrite pad and clean it, then apply the heat and solder. If the solder melts when you touch it to the copper then it is hot enough. Watch the flow. You can take a damp cloth and wipe the hot solder before it hardens to remove the excess. Make a clean look.


Clean, the copper must be clean.

Practice on scrap pieces

have fun.

Dwight
 
Trev,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
If you bought the pipes from Andy, then all you need to do is solder them together as the main pipe fits all the way into the elbows. To hold the two elbows together, you need a short section to fit into both elbows and again, if you bought from Andy, that comes in the package.<o:p></o:p>
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Like you I had never soldered such large copper pipes together before, but it is fairly easy. If I remember correctly, I soldered the two elbows first with the short pipe section to connect the elbows. I sanded the edges (these need to be very shiny to ensure any oxidation is removed), liberally applied solder flux to the areas that are to be soldered, pushed the connections home, and then gripped them in a vice. You heat up the copper pipe (not the solder) with a butane/propane torch and when the copper is hot enough you simply touch the solder into the joint and the heat of the copper pipe draws the solder up and into the joint by capillary action. Because the pipe is to large, you need to keep applying the heat to the copper pipe as you move the solder rod around the pipe connection. The TS manual says to tin the pipe but for me, I preferred to use the ‘capillary’ solder solution.<o:p></o:p>
Good luck<o:p></o:p>
Ian<o:p></o:p>
 
Finally got round to having a stab at soldering the pipes and I am happy to say it went pretty well. I spent a good amount of time deburring the pipes, test fitting and cleaned really well with wire wool.

Not perfect by any stretch for my first attempt but I am happy with the result.

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That's another job done and one more step closer to getting my dream on the road

Trev
 

Dimi Terleckyj

Lifetime Supporter
Hi guys

One of the things to remember is that these pipes will be subject to heat and vibration and as such will not withstand much if just soldered with normal soft solder.

If this were my car I would be using silver solder which produces a much better and harder joint.

Dimi
 
Hi guys

One of the things to remember is that these pipes will be subject to heat and vibration and as such will not withstand much if just soldered with normal soft solder.

If this were my car I would be using silver solder which produces a much better and harder joint.

Dimi

+1. I'd be surprised if the lead solder holds and seals over the long haul (just my opinion). Silver solder would be better.

Please feel free to ignore me but I wouldn't have used copper pipes there in the first place - that'll release a fair bit of heat into the tunnel (SS would transfer less heat).

Before buttoning up the tunnel, it would be wise to check the seal on that joint - hook up a pressure fitting of some sort and check the leak down. Just an idea.

Good luck!
 

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
+1. I'd be surprised if the lead solder holds and seals over the long haul.

If I were Trevor I might be wondering why you guys waited untill I had it all soldered together to bring this up...:drunk:

Anyhow to take a pragmatic view, there are a bunch of Tornados running around with soft-soldered copper pipes, right? Are they springing leaks?
 
Thanks for the feedback guys. I used standard plumbing solder I got from my local DIY store as the tornado manual didn't mention any special solder otherwise I would have been on it straight away.

Is it worth taking the pipes apart and and re-soldering with silver solder or will it be too difficult.

In regards to the heat from the pipes they will be wrapped in aluminium radiator tape which I have been advised should keep the heat levels down.

Also I am thinking of having the pipes painted/coated to get a silver finish. Is there perhaps a coating I can have applied to the pipes that will give them a nice looking finish and increase the strength of the joints?

Trev
 

Mike Pass

Supporter
I ran copper pipes soldered with ordinary plumbers solder in my Imp for years with no problems. The solder is covering a very large area and is a very thin layer between the inner and outer pipes and will take a lot of force to pull it apart - just try! A GT40 gets very hot inside in summer so insulating the hot water pipes is essential. Apply the the most and best insulation you can get or you will die on a hot day. There are now many very good products which are quite thin but very effective.
Cheers
Mike
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
We used fiberglass woven exhaust wrapping on my cooling tubes, held on with large shrink-wrap tubing after it was wound in place and wired to stay there. You do need insulation on the cooling water pipes otherwise a lot of heat will find its way into the passenger space. These cars do not have much ventilation and they have a lot of glass area, so the heat load into the passenger area is quite large.

On the plus side, it will encourage your passenger to disrobe- good if it's a woman. Not so good if it's one of your buddies.
 

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
Is it worth taking the pipes apart and and re-soldering with silver solder or will it be too difficult.

In regards to the heat from the pipes they will be wrapped in aluminium radiator tape which I have been advised should keep the heat levels down.

Also I am thinking of having the pipes painted/coated to get a silver finish. Is there perhaps a coating I can have applied to the pipes that will give them a nice looking finish and increase the strength of the joints?

It would be an absolute pain to undo all your work although it is doable: you would have to heat the joints up to where all the solder in the joint is molten at the same time, and then pull the joints apart. Then you would have to sand off the residual soft solder to where you have bright copper again, and then do the whole thing over again except this time using $20/oz silver solder that melts at 1200 degrees fahrenheit rather than ~600. And what problem would be solved?

As Mike points out, what you currently have is a slip joint with an extremely large surface area and the only way to make it separate is to make it fail in shear. I'm nearly certain the copper on either side of that joint would fail before the joint would. Furthermore, where in actual use are those forces going to come from? A tractor pull with your car in the middle?

There is no coating per se that will improve strength. I'm not sure what aluminum radiator tape is but what you want is a thick, non-heat-conductive barrier such as Jimbo suggests. Being silver and/or metal usually have to do with preventing radiant heat transmission, and that's not your problem. You're basically trying to create a volume of immobile air around the pipe to prevent heat from being either conducted or convected away from the pipes; this is the same problem you have within the exterior walls of a building so some kind of fiberglass cloth, batting, strips, etc. is what to look for first. The thicker the better.

Finally: would the anti-solf-soldered-copper crowd please provide an actual comparable case of failure? I know that in an ideal world Trevor would have used mandrel-bent gold-plated inconel/titanium sandwich tubing insulated by space shuttle tiles. Are the roadsides littered with overheating Tornados?
 
For what it's worth Trev, I think you've done a great job there!

If you are soft mounting your radiator, aswell as having some damping with silicon hoses at either end, I also struggle to see where the shear / vibration damage would come from.

Well done :thumbsup:
 
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