Water pump booster

Ron Earp · 05-10-04, 11:03 PM

For those that might thing they need it:

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...mp/index.shtml

Frankly, I think if you're having cooling problems it isn't bled, you've got air trapped, or your radiator is too small. But, there it is and it is cheaper than some alternatives I've seen.

R

Lee · 05-11-04, 08:51 AM

I note in the article the flow rate is quoted as 300 - 1300 gallons per hour.
Meziere recommned their 35 gpm (2100 gallons per hour) pumps for drag racing, and that for most road applications their 55 gpm (3300 gallons per hour) pumps should be used.
Davies Craig's 1300 gph is a bit short of the 3300gph recommended by Meziere.

http://www.meziere.com/racing/electric/wp111.htm

Anyone got any ideas on this shortfall?

Bob Putnam · 05-11-04, 09:19 AM

We've had a car on the road for about 2 years with the D-C pump. Zero problems, even at speed. Stays nicely cool at idle.

When you think about it, the amount of coolant flow is not particularly rpm dependent. The heat generated is more proportional to the load (although there's some additional frictional energy that's rpm-dependent).

The problem with crank-driven pumps is that, being centrifugal pumps, they don't work well at low rpms. Consequently, they have to be very oversized to compensate, and end up very wasteful at high rpm. They also tend to cavitate because the pump is being run past its optimum speed. In addition, at low speeds th air flow through the radiator is lower, so the higher water flow from an electric pump might compensate a bit.

In short, a constant-flow pump is better at cooling a GT than a crank-driven centrifugal pump...

DaveWharran · 05-11-04, 11:09 PM

I used this pump on the Cleveland. Made plumbing a lot easier plus no pulley sticking into the interior. As Bob said, with the variable speed controller, it runs as fast as it needs to regardless of engine speed. No problems so far.
I also added one of Davies Craig's booster pumps for the heater. It too works great.
The EWP makes bleeding the system a lot easier since the engine doesn't have to be running and there is no thermostat. You can start and stop the pump as needed and add coolant as needed. No hot water to mess with.

Alain Vanhollebeke · 05-12-04, 12:32 AM

Do you have any pics of the installation?

What did you do with the front of your engine???
ie: did you remove the standard water pump completely and make a plate with some fittings,,,,or did you just gut the stock pump and plug the hole where the shaft/impeller used to be?

Bob Putnam · 05-12-04, 08:12 AM

For the installation that I'm talking about we fabricated a water manifold that took the place of the water pump. If you have a TIG welder and like to play, it's a nice way to spend 10 hours or so. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

It's much simpler to remove the impeller from a stock pump and weld up the nose. (Which is what I will do the next time.)

Brett James-McCall · 05-12-04, 08:22 AM

Brian Magee also had this for sale at Christmas, see http://www.gt40s.com/ubbthreads/show...true#Post27713

Brett

Alain Vanhollebeke · 05-12-04, 08:33 AM

Yes, I agree that plugging a stock pump is the easier solution. I think I'll do that with a core pump I have at the shop.

Julian West · 05-12-04, 09:10 AM

This looks really interesting, obviously there are several benefits to an EWP.

In the Mustang installation the pump was fitted close to the rad, but in a GT40 where would be the ideal location?

At a guess, there is more room in the front of the GT40, close to the rad but this is a way from the engine... I wonder if this matters??

The article claims "It takes anywhere from 15-20% of an engines total horsepower to drive a stock waterpump at high engine speeds"

Is this an accurate guess?? it seems very high?? on a 345 bhp motor this is over 50 bhp!!

Brett James-McCall · 05-12-04, 12:41 PM

Julian,
I believe Meziere and Moroso state that it is worth 15-20hp, but Moroso, also say one of thier electric pumps can give gains of up to 30hp.

The two installations that I have seen have been close to the rad. According the DC, the unit should be mounted at the lowest possible point to ensure no air gets into the pump (or something like that from memory).

Brett

Lee · 05-12-04, 02:51 PM

Dave/ Bob
I assume you are both talking about the same installation? Dave do you use the booster pump to start with by itself to get the water up to temperature, or do you let the Controller control the entire water capacity go all the way round the system all the time?
I am concerned about running the engine too cool for too long after start up.
Also I am concerned at the difference in the recommendation of Meziere who suggest NOT using the 35gpm pump(2100 gph) for road cars, while DC runs at maximum of 1300gph. How can 2100 be not enough, and 1300 be enough??????
Also using an electric pump with Controller allows the engine to have reverse water flow (ie cooler water in head, warmer water in block). Anyone tried this?

DaveWharran · 05-12-04, 11:53 PM

I started to use a Snow White pump which is an Opel GT pump fit into an aluminum casting that takes the place of the original pump. I decided to go electric as I was fitting the engine. The plumbing from the Cleveland didn't fit the car so well. I simply made a plate to replace the pump body and welded a V shaped block on the inside to divert the water both ways into the heads. May not have needed the V block, but my labor is cheap!
Davies Craig don't recommend attaching the pump to anything solid (like the bracket/tube mine is on. According to them, tests on racing engines show vibration makes the pump seal leak. So they would rather see the pump mounted and supported by the suction and discharge hoses.
4K miles on mine with no problems so far.

I fabed an 1 1/2" pipe from the pump cover to the pump which I mounted just in front of and to the left of the oil pan. The variable speed control for the pump is located by the right side door post behind the dash (near the paper bag on the rocker panel in the photo).

There is not thermostat. The temperature sensor for the controller is mounted in a Swagelok fitting where the thermostat used to be. Warm up of the engine is within 5 minutes at 2000 rpm setting in the garage. Within 4 or 5 miles driving.
The little booster pump is only for the heater core. Fluid doesn't want to flow across the heater core when the radiator presents a less restricted flow path. The booster pump forces it through the core.

My installation is not the one Bob is refering to.
As Bob said, a TIG machine is certainly helpful!

Here's some photos of how I set mine up.

Brian Kissel · 05-17-04, 01:49 AM

I have seen the Davies Craig pumps before, and they seem to work great. However as Dave states, "they don't recommend attaching the pump to anything solid". I also checked the Ron Davis Radiators water pump out also. It mounts directly or integral in the radiator. Custom sized radiators are there speciality. Like this one.

Regards Brian

Bob Putnam · 05-17-04, 08:26 AM

On our installation of the D-C pump, we simply hung the pump from (the equivalent to) the old water pump inlet with a short length of hose. With the ERA, the other end of the D-C pump only needed another short hose to go to the longitudinal tube. The most complicated part of the installation was making a water-tight holder for the temperature probe.

Lynn · 05-17-04, 12:33 PM

All,

You know the boost pump that I think would be the easiest to install and would be the absolute best pump. While it is more expensive, I think the value is there over the D-C pump.

Stewart Products Web Page

It comes as a computer controled pump or integrated System:

Gary Gibbs · 05-17-04, 07:48 PM

Dave: I may have missed this but which controller are you using? D-C?

Thanks
gary

Ron Earp · 05-17-04, 08:20 PM

I still don't think these things are ncessary. BLACKJACK (Jack M) has a nice ERA that he basically didn't drive for fear of overheating. He had electric pumps, however, he still had issues. Once he put in bleed returns and crossover pipe he had no more problems - his words, not mine. I think the posts are on this forum and certainly over on Club Cobra.

But, I also like KISS, keep it simple stupid. I'd use a hi proformance mechanical fuel pump if I hadn't already done the front dress of my motor. I've got carbs and I like the mechanical water pump as well - simple, proven, and effective - not to mention adequate and cheap!

DaveWharran · 05-18-04, 01:15 AM

Gary,
Yes, using the Davies Craig variable speed controller.

Ron,
The 351C in the ERA chasis made plumbing the front of the engine almost impossible with the air conditioning compressor/belts/brackets and the Snow White short pump. The tube that ERA normally uses between the mechanical pump and tube running up the center of the chassis wouldn't fit. There was zero room for any water pipes out that side of the engine. The physical size difference in the engines is quite noticable when the C and a 302 set side by side.

The DC pump took a bit of effort to install, but the installation fits, is neat, and works. Can't ask for any more than that.

The C uses all the capacity of the cooling system on hot days when moving slowly with the AC on. I've just replaced the 50/50 water antifreeze mix with 80/20 water antifreeze and water wetter. First impressions are very much improved cooling capacity.

I like to keep it simple too, but the simple solution doesn't always work.
The car is back in the garage right now having the fuel and charging systems revamped. The simple solutions to neither system worked well for extended street miles. The more elaborite solutions are a 140 amp charging system and a 3 pump fuel system. I'll post after things are straightened out, but the short story is the electric fans (2 radiator, 1 oil cooler) draw lots of current. Add to that, a high pressure fuel pump, air conditioning, electric water pump, stereo, etc. you soon tax a standard alternator to the point it barely keeps up. The EFI doesn't like voltages to be pulled down to 12 volts, plus the battery won't charge. Fuel pump capacity is reduced by 40% from 13.5 to 12 volts (manufacturers data). It all sort of snowballs.
Some of the pitfalls of using modern systems. It was a lot simplier in the days before electronics!!

As for the fuel system, HP fuel pumps do not like it when you step on the brakes with less than 1/2 tank of fuel. They starve and will not last. Expensive test with 2 $300 pumps worn out in 4K miles...and the time they were fuel starved in 4K miles is probably less than 3 to 5 minutes total.

Dave

gt40rick · 05-18-04, 07:21 AM

I'll add that I drive my car on 95° days with the ac on and at open track days my car will run every session without any overheating issues (don't count the one time that I left my radiator cap off at Road America [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]), and I use a mechanical water pump. The real issues IMHO are having a good cross flow radiator and removing all of the air from the system when you fill it.

Lynn · 05-18-04, 09:57 AM

While I think that, IF you are going to use something other than the mechanical water pump or are going to, for whatever reason, put an aux. water pump on your car, I would suggest the Stewart pump for numerous reasons.

That said, I agree with Ron and Rick also. To date, I have found no overwhelming reason to add a pump. If you have a good high performance mechancial water pump, an