Fuel Pumps and Petrol / Alcohol Mixes

[Lance]

Chaps,

I'm hoping someone may be able to help out with an issue that has raised it's ugly head here in Australia, apparently.

The back ground, as it has been explained to me, is that petrol here is now sold with a 10% alcohol component. Stretching fossil fuels and all that. It was recommended the government allow a 5% mix, but, in their wisdom, they decided to allow 10%. Stretches the fuel even further.

This is all very well but, apparently, the difference can be significant and the local vehicle manufacturer's are experiencing a slew of fuel pump failures, as a result. Not all of them of course, but significant. Enough that warranty claims are starting to hurt. A company has been hired to carry out research into the problem and find a pump type that will handle the mix. I've been told that the only suitable performance has been from a pump designed for the Mexican market where they, apparently, have a high alcohol mix, but the pump is very expensive, therefore not economically suitable.

All this sounds a bit strange, but I'm assured it's all genuine and, at this stage, I'm waiting for them to finish their study, so that I can get a recommendation before I buy my fuel pumps. I thought I'd ask the forum about it to see if anyone else has any knowledge in this area. Years ago I crewed on an alcohol dragster and we experienced a lot of trouble with injectors clagging up with the alcohol, so I know it can be tricky to use.

My questions are:

1. Has anyone come across this issue elsewhere?

2. If so, what were the recommendations / solutions?

3. Has anyone experienced fuel pump failures with mixed fuels in their cars?


I'd be very interested to hear. Thanks for any input.

Lance

[JohnC]

There have been similar problems with methanol/water injection systems running on forced induction engines. These systems run a typical 50/50 mix of methanol & water, so it's probably one of the worst environments possible for a pump, lines, and any valves/injectors.

There has been clogging in the suction screens before the M/W pump and in the screens just before the injection nozzles. It's a white chalky/slimy substance that seems to be suspended in the mix and gets carried through the system. Haven't found a solution for this other than regular maintenance and cleaning of the screens.

Pump failures aren't that common in the M/W systems but when they do occur, they seem to be from a buildup of this white junk, the drying out of the pump's softparts, and lack of lubrication of their bearings & bushings. The drying out, and the lack of lubrication issues have been nearly eliminated by mixing in a small amount of premium 2 cycle oil in the M/W mix to give it some lubricity. Some use ATF, others use top cylinder lube, but they all do basically the same thing. I believe typical ratios have been 50:1 or even less.

[Keith Hardy]

Deleted

[Ian Anderson]

Back in the late Rohodesia days / and then early Zimbabwe days (Late 70's early 80's) they too had a fuel problem (sanctions meant that we were not supposed to be able to source fuel)

So we had a huge sugar cane production in the country and they in power decided that a 25% ethanol petol "blend" (as it became known) was good for the country.

A couple of things happened the fuel consumption dropped (less miles per gallon) and the evaporation rate increased horribly in the summer (Mid30 degree celsius upwards) - especially with a tank less than half full (remember back then tanks vented to atmosphere - so probably different now)

Also most cars were carb fed then and now are injection.

BUT

From where the fuel entered the car
Filler cap seals perished in the fumes
Fuel hoses split (the plastic was eaten by the alcohol)
SU type (click click) fuel pumps had the rubber membrane bit perish
Some pumps (Click Click type) had non return valves in a plastic / nylon units which deformed and the non return valves failed (pump stopped working)
Fuel pumps on VW beetles etc (cam driven fuel pump) had the rubber membrane fail and you got a lethal fuel / oil mix in the sump (didn't lubricate properly and with a spark blew the sump off)
SU fuel pumps float needles had a plasic alignment bit that melted and card flooded as the float did not seal off
Engines wore far more rapidly - Gurus said the ethanol washed the bores all the time) We all ended up using an upper cylinder lubricant (Castrol R also worked well and smells so good!)
2 Stroke bikes had to be adjusted to get more oil mixed in to the fuel
Exhausts rotted (seemed to be more water in the gasses - to the extent they welded a bolt on the bottom of each silencer and drilled a hole through the bolt center to allow water to drain but all exhausts sounded like they were blowing)
Oh yes they also came out with a different gasket sealer for fuel related bits that was not affected by the alcohol

So there were problems but they were not insurmountable back then but wih injectors, HP fuel injection etc things could be different.

But make sure you get all the fuel lines etc in alcohol proof pipe.

And the last thing was the batches of the Blend varied widely from nil to almost 50% depending on which prat was doing the mixing!

Sorry cannot be more helpful on current issues but can certainly help with the past

Cheers
Ian

[Doug Sainlar]

Here is the U.S. a new ethanol/petroleum mix called E85 is being promoted. This mix uses 85% (!!) ethanol. While the advice the car manufacturers give is to use E85 only in FFV's (Flex Fuel Vehicles--cars which are designed to run on either E85 or 100% gasoline), the truth is that it has been researched and found to not cause problems with cars that are designed to run only on gasoline.

I did a Google search for "E85 fuel system modifications" and came up with 27,000 hits--needless to say I didn't read them all, but this one did catch my eye. It is from a company that offers some sort of kit to retrofit existing cars. What piqued my attention, though, was the research they offered regarding a 100,000 mile test using E85 in a car not designed for that fuel. Apparently there was reduced wear on the engine and no problems with the corrosive effects Ian mentioned. This was, admittedly, a more recent car than those mentioned by Ian, but it led me to believe that these ethanol mixes aren't as destructive as represented by the manufacturers.

Here's a link: https://www.convertanycar2e85.com/~converta/

But wait! First off, I wonder why this company is selling a conversion kit if there are truly no adverse effects of using E85 in a non-FFV. There must be something in their kit, but they aren't specific as to what it is. Maybe it is a 14 oz. bottle of "snake oil" to put into each tank of gas?????

All kidding aside, though, here in my part of the US "gasahol" is in almost every gas pump. The sticker on the pump says 10% ethanol blend. I've used it in every car I've driven since they started to offer it (I'd guess that to be at least 15 years ago) and have not had any adverse reactions to my knowledge, and I put a lot of miles on my cars. One of my cars is turning over 249K soon and a Ford T-Bird I drove had over 350K and still had the factory in-tank fuel pump/system when I quit driving it.

My guess with a 5% or 10% blend is that you're OK. I'm not sure about an 85% blend--time will tell on that one.

That's just my $.02 worth, but naturally YMMV.

Doug

[Lynn]

Lance,

I would suggest that you look to Brazil for information. They have been running alcohol/petrol mix and pure alcohol for years now. Because of the huge amount of sugar cane production there, they, rightfully so, saw alcohol as locally produced, renewable alternative to petrol fuels.

Technologically speaking, they are fairly advanced as well: one of the most ubiquitous regional jets used in the US is built in Brazil.

Lynn

[Ian Anderson]

Doug

I did mention that this was back in late 70's early 80's and back then I am sure most (or all) engines were expecting to run normal leaded petrol.
This would also obviously be missing in the alcohol

I can confirm the bits that went on my car (Morris Minor)
Fuel tank cap seal
Fuel pipe
SU fuel pump membrane
SU float needle

I always ran with the Upper cylinder lubricant so cannot confirm wear and had an exhause wih the welded nut!

But the blends were definately of very different quality per batch - so much so that you could smell the difference!

Hey ho all good fun!

But then I also managed to convert the Morris to rn on paraffin at about a quarter the price of petrol - great so long as you did not stop the engine and let it cool down!

Ian

[Howard Jones]

California uses 10% alcohol in the unleaded we have here. Why don't you give Holley a call and see what they think. They sell all kinds of fuel pumps all over the world including California USA.

Anyway whatvever we use here ought to work. I have the orginal GTD Facet's on my GTD and as of yet I have had no problems. (6 years and 7K miles)

[Lance]

Further to my original query, the outcome of the fuel pump study is that the pump shown in the attached photos is now being used by GMH here. Apparently, there have been many warranty claims (not a Ford problem, for some reason) and this is the solution. I don't know if it's right, wrong or indifferent, but I've been told that Australia isn't running the cocktail fuel mix that some other countries do and that is causing the problem. I'll leave you to judge that for yourselves.

I'm using these pumps in my car for several reasons, including the fuel issue. The unit comes complete with the pump, screen, swirl pot and level gauge. It incorporates a spring mounting, so that it will fit into various height tanks. It's a shame it isn't made of alloy, but it won't be visible in my installation, so I can live with that. If I ever do have to replace one, I can buy it at any GM dealership. Installation is snug, but it fits.

The level gauge arm has been taken off in the photos. The sensor will go too. I'm using separate Turotest float type sender units.The pump is a high pressure submersible type, so plumbing is simple. One supply line to one end of the fuel rail and one return to the tank for each side of the car. This gives two fully redundant systems. The return line feeds into the surge pot. The pickup is on the underside of the swirl pot, which will sit flat on the bottom of a small sump area in the tank. In my DRB, there's just enough room to sneak one in. It should suck the tank pretty much completely dry. In addition, there seems to be a built in sensor that will stop the pump drawing from the tank and only draw from the swirl pot when the tank is empty. It should draw right down to fumes. I'm having a switch for each pump on the dash. Generally, I'll switch one on at a time for normal use, but switch both on for a bit of fun, say, drag racing, where fuel use could be up.

I don't have the part number here just now, but I'll post it soon.

Regards,

Lance

[DBLDREW]

Originally Posted by YerDugliness

But wait! First off, I wonder why this company is selling a conversion kit if there are truly no adverse effects of using E85 in a non-FFV. There must be something in their kit, but they aren't specific as to what it is. Maybe it is a 14 oz. bottle of "snake oil" to put into each tank of gas?????


Doug

There is less energy in ethanol then there is in reg-unleaded gas. So to have your engine working properly your fuel injectors need to spray more fuel to compensate. A flex fuel vehicle has a sensor in the fuel to detect how much ethanol is present and it will remap the fuel curves to compensate.

I would imagine that the adapter kits are something similar, but maybe more primitive like just re-mapping the fuel curves. So it will work better on e-85 but will be running rich on reg gas. Or maybe there is a switch so you can choose one or the other depending on what you just filled up with and it will optimize it for e-85 or reg gas.

Although there is less energy in ethanol the hp potential is much higher then unleaded gas. 100% ethanol is 116 octane and e-85 is 106 octane. Running 12:1 compression ratio on e-85 would not only make more power but you would actually gain some fuel economy.

[Lance]

The Holden part number for this item is 92159797.

Lance

[Tobias]

Here in Sweden we have a 10%mix in the fuel too.

In Sweden turbo tuners use e85 because e85 dosn´t ping as easily as normal fuel so they can run more boost in their cars but when it does ping it destroys the engine. if normal fuel pings early it will most likley not destroy the engine. A normal car will run e85, but it will need about 33% more fuel to run properly,

(you might also run higher compression but that´s my quess)

turbo guy´s says: alcohol and driving does match, as long as you have the alcohol in the fuel tank..

[Trevor Booth]

Lance,
I am not so sure that the ethanol is causing all the problem. The crap that is in our unleaded fuel rots screw driver handles !!!

There is a lot of variation in the blends sold in various regions.

FWIW I have been running my road car ( twin turbo 3000 V6) on 95 RON 10% ethanol for over 12 mths and no problems. Fuel consumption has not changed.

[Trevor Booth]

Lance,
reading your post carefully,
if you are running two independant systems you will need to control which return line is in operation to ensure that you are not sucking out of one tank and returning to the other. It is also not the best idea to run the return into the swirl pot, you will be picking up hot fuel from the return.

[Lance]

Valid points.

My intent is as shown on the attached sketch, which I drew to do the fittings take-off. Item 8 is a solenoid that will direct the return fuel flow to the tank / pump being used. It has been suggested that I could use it to transfer fuel between tanks, but I can't see the use and think that may be trying to be too smart. I'll tend to use the driver's side tank first to even up weight distribution.

The pump is located in the swirl pot, but draws from a pick-up on the underside of the pot as shown in the attached photo. It won't pick up the hot swirl pot fuel until the tank runs dry, at which time a pressure valve closes and then the pump draws solely from the swirl pot. It should pretty much suck the tank completely dry.

All the best

Lance