016 to 944turbo

[Don.]

Any guys
Have some photos on how to flip the 944turbo gear set and the R&P into 016 gearbox.
Thanks,
Don.

[ingvar]

hello
link to som of your wanted information, not many pictures though

http://www.924.org/

http://www.924.org/techsection/transapps.htm

http://www.924.org/techsection/PorscheTrans1.PDF

hope this helps
ingvar

[CliffBeer]

Agreed - would be nice to get some clarity (including pics) on the issue of whether the 944T LSD and spider gear set can be installed in an 016 audi box from a 2WD 5000. More specifically, if it can be installed, exactly HOW can it be installed? Any machining involved or is it simply bolt-in?

Prior posts on this topics have been confusing with many comments indicating it can or can't be done, but with little substantive information provided in support. By "substantive" I mean first hand experience coupled with some pictoral or documentary evidence. What's not helpful is links to other sites which are not on point or contain only speculation or confusing language.

Frankly, I think I'm going to have to utilize one of the 016's that I currently have and buy a 944T LSD/spider gear for comparison set so I can get some of my own first hand knowledge here. I'll take a bunch of pics and share!

[Jim S.]

Cliff,

the LSD from a 944T and the open different from a 016 are IDENTICAL! The
LSD from the 944 has 4 spider gears instead of 2 which makes it stronger and it's a limited slip which can be better for obvious reasons.

The pinion gear shaft on the 944T is 4mm longer between 4th gear and 3rd gear. So the cast iron case and the front aluminum case need to be spaced apart with a 4mm shim. The 4th gear needs to be turned around because it is offset and has a shoulder on one side. This will move it back and position it back up with it's mating gear on the input shaft. Because you've moved the gear train back you most lengthen all 3 shift fork shafts to line them back up with the shifting paw that engages them when your shifting. The front Aluminum case needs to be bored out to to accept the larger porsche front pinion bearing. Now that that's done, the front case needs to be relieved alittle where the ring gear is placed because the 3.375 to 1 ring gear is bigger in diameter. It actually fits in a little ways then hits, so you can probably relieve it with a die grinder. The porsche case is bored out alittle bit at the factor for this reason. The needle bearing that supports the main shaft should still contact the shaft even though the shaft has moved back 4mm.
Might have to press the bearing back alittle.

Now you know the rest of the story. I stated this already under Ron's post: Audi 016 Owners/Users

Good luck.

[Ryan]

Again Jim.

Nice job.

[Pete T]

I've been researching the 944 016 for awhile now. I just finished comparing parts from all of the Porsche 016 transaxles from the Porsche PET. Quaife offers a LSD for 1986 and newer transaxles. Since all of the 016 Porsche transaxles use the same differential case (from the 088 4 spd used on 76-78 924's to the last 944 including the turbo), this LSD will fit all 016 Porsche transaxles. The case part number for the Porsche non LSD diff is 088.409.121B. If this part number is the same as the Audi, it eliminated any question. (although the 944 LSD has already been used in the Audi 016) The side bearings are the same in the Audi 016 too. I think that it is sad that Quaife hasn't figured this out. They could be selling these for early 944's. The drive flanges are all the same except that the S/S2/turbo use a slightly larger cv joint diameter. (splined part is the same)
Incidently, Porsche calls the transaxle used on the 944S; S2 and turbo 083. It's still basically the same, it just has some strengthened parts. The pinion bearing is larger due to the larger diameter of the 944 turbo and S/S2 pinion gear. The 944S & S2 transaxles also use the larger bearing. They also use a different ring & pinion. It is an 8:31 (3.875) which is much stronger than the older 9:35 (3.88), the pinion gear is larger and theirfore stronger.

[CliffBeer]

Jim and Pete, thank you. Wonderful information. You both obviously have som experience in this area!

So here's a goofy newbie question then.... Recognizing that some machine work is necessary to make the 944 LSD/spider gears work in the Audi 016 box, what's the downside to just installing the whole 944 box? Is it dimensionally longer or less desirable in some way? I'm guessing that the bell housing is the same as the Audi 016 bell housing so bolting it to the adapter plate isn't a problem, correct?

Thanks!

[Bill Hara]

I think I would be safe to say "Incorrect" Cliff...

I believe that the 944 box is torque tube, ie no bellhousing - I could be wrond as I am no expert however I recall in the early days of this forum (4-5 years ago) this was discussed at some length and there are a number of posts from this time that talked about the pros and cons.

Regards

Bill.

[Peter Olliviere]

Bill,
Your are correct, the transmission used on the 944 and 968 were 016 and 01E (6 Speed) in the 968. The problem for our use is that a torque tube between the trans and the clutch was used for the rear mounted tranmission and engine mounted clutch. This design eliminated the bellhousing on the transmission itself.

Peter

[Jim S.]

Cliff,

THERE IS NO MODIFICATION NECCESSARY TO PUT A 944T LSD IN THE AUDI 016!!!! It's just the pinion shaft/gear that is longer. The ring gear is also bigger in diameter. This is what causes the problems NOT the LSD!


The bell housing on the 944T is basically the same, but lacks a through out bearing support tube(bearing rides on this tube), doesn't have a button for the throughout fork to pivot on, and the hole in the Audi bell housing where the slave cylinder is located is machined differently on the audi then on the 944. On the 944 the shift rod passes through this hole. On the Audi the slave cylinder is mounted in it. You might be able to modify the 944 bell housing to work on the Audi. I'm not sure. But you still need to address the input shaft also, there isn't a smooth end on the 944 for the pilot bearing to ride on. This is because it is a torque tube trans as mentioned above.

I don't mean to sound nasty, but please refer back to the Thread that Ron started I went over all of this: see below

Note: go to page 2 and scroll down to #24 reply
Audi 016 Owners/Users

Good Luck

[Pete T]

I agree. I don't really see much benefit with the 944 turbo transaxle anyway. The weak parts of the Audi 016 have been addressed. The only thing that really would be beneficial is that the 944 turbo tramsaxle can be purchased for less than a new LSD and if you bought the correct one, you would also get the oil cooler. You could put the LSD into your 016 and retrofit the cooler easily. Using the 944 R & P requires machining to the Audi case and using the 944 as is requires machining to the input shaft for a pilot bearing and figuring a way to mount the T/O bearing tube, slave cylinder, and throughout arm.

[CliffBeer]

OK, great information here. One point of clarification so there's no uncertainty: the LSD from a 944 fits into an Audi derived 016 without machining - that I understand - how about the spider gears? In other words, the 944 LSD replaces the (weak) Audi spider gears with a different arrangement?? Something like some slip plates and 4 spider gears instead of 2?

The reason I post the above is that it seems from related posts that the Audi spider gears are a particular weak point that can break with the torque of a SBF.

Thanks.

[Pete T]

The 944 turbo LSD has 4 pinion gears and different spider gears. Hter is an exploded picture of one. Also, I attached a picture of a 944 turbo transaxle so everyone can see the input shaft and the oil coller.

[Pete T]

I'll try again. I don't know what happened to the pictures.
[ATTACH][/ATTACH]

[CliffBeer]

Originally Posted by Bill Haralambakis

I think I would be safe to say "Incorrect" Cliff...

I believe that the 944 box is torque tube, ie no bellhousing - I could be wrond as I am no expert however I recall in the early days of this forum (4-5 years ago) this was discussed at some length and there are a number of posts from this time that talked about the pros and cons.

Regards

Bill.

Hi Bill,

Thanks. Attached is a pic of a 944 016. It does, in fact, appear to have a bellhousing, in contrast to your opinion above. Perhaps you can provide further clarification.

[Bill Hara]

Cliff

Please take no offense from my post, I suppose it came off a little too clinical and re-reading it now I've just clipped myself over the ears....

What I should have said is that there is a substantial amount of older posts that talked about the 944 transaxle and these indicated that the major stumbling block to using it in the 40 was the fact that they had a torque tube that connected the front engined Posche 944 to its rear mounted transaxle. From a "Experts: Porsche Repair" forum, I got the following information
- "The torque tube is basically a rigid housing connecting the 944's bellhousing (clutch housing) to the transaxle at the rear wheels. Inside the housing is a driveshaft supported by three or four ball bearings"
I'll attach some photos, hope they clarify things.

Regards


Bill

[CliffBeer]

Hi Bill,

Yup, definitely a torque tube there with the 944 (vaguely remember this too now that I think about it - had a 944 many years ago). I guess the main issue is will the 944 016 bellhousing adapt OK to the common SBF adapters such as Kennedy??? Or, is this bellhousing particular to the 944 and the torque tube arrangement??

Thanks!

[Peter Olliviere]

http://www.elektro.com/~audi/01E/Por968/

If you go to the above link you will see a close up view of the fron t of an 01E taken from a Porsche 968. The setup of the front housing should be about the same as that on the 016 box used in the 944. You will notice that the box has no provision to mount a starter or clutch fork. In addition looking at the ruler that isshowing the depth of the housing would be a problem to mount the clutch and flywheel.

Peter

[Pete T]

The bellhousing shape is the same. I suggested in another thread that you take the Audi 016 case, machine it for the 944t front pinion bearing size, maching the area for the 944t ring gear clearance and machine the 944 input shaft for a pilot bearing. Then swap housings with the 944. You would end up with all of the good stuff and also a 1"23 spline for the clutch disc. Ford and Chrysler used this same spline so you would have an endless selection of clutches to choose from.
Pete