R&p For 016
- Thread starter ddcobra
- Start date
Yes, rather pricey from German Transaxle however - $4,300 for an 016 with the 3.22 r&p and with the LSD. The customer must, however, supply a rebuildable 5N 016 and ship it to their Oregon place of biz to get that price. Another $650 if you can't supply the 5N.
Net, for $5,000 I'll get a good G50 instead and still have $1,000 in the bank.
Net, for $5,000 I'll get a good G50 instead and still have $1,000 in the bank.
Have you considered contacting Mick at 40 inches in Australia re a 3.22 CW & P for an 016 box.
Link below takes you to his parts page. AU$2800 (approx) for the parts required is probably as good a deal as can be presently found.
http://www.40inches.com/photo/index.php?gallery=./Parts for sale/New Parts and Sources/Gearbox Parts
Link below takes you to his parts page. AU$2800 (approx) for the parts required is probably as good a deal as can be presently found.
http://www.40inches.com/photo/index.php?gallery=./Parts for sale/New Parts and Sources/Gearbox Parts
What I dont understand is why the incredible cost of this.
At the factory, it probably only costs about $70 to churn out a complete gearbox. Its not that the parts are made by 200 people standing in front of lathes, gear cutters and hand files (joke about the files). These are parts that are knocked out in their thousands by CNC machines.
Once a program is in a machine, the machine does the work.
Oh well, I guess thats the nature of business huh, where markup on parts is in the thousands of percent.
At the factory, it probably only costs about $70 to churn out a complete gearbox. Its not that the parts are made by 200 people standing in front of lathes, gear cutters and hand files (joke about the files). These are parts that are knocked out in their thousands by CNC machines.
Once a program is in a machine, the machine does the work.
Oh well, I guess thats the nature of business huh, where markup on parts is in the thousands of percent.
If there were so few machines, they would not have any time to knock out any for the aftermarket. They would be tied up making them for the OEM. With the amount of cars, trucks, busses, etc. they wouldn't be able to keep up. Maybe a few thousand a minute?
There have got to be more machines somewhere. As far as the cost, usually it is governed more by quantity than actual cost. The price per part goes down quickly when the quantities go up. Short runs (like a custom ring & pinion) has higher piece cost because costs to manufacture and profit is split between a few parts. If you were to make a few thousand, the cost would be more in line with what you would pay for a gear set for a Chevy.
There have got to be more machines somewhere. As far as the cost, usually it is governed more by quantity than actual cost. The price per part goes down quickly when the quantities go up. Short runs (like a custom ring & pinion) has higher piece cost because costs to manufacture and profit is split between a few parts. If you were to make a few thousand, the cost would be more in line with what you would pay for a gear set for a Chevy.
The pinion gear on the 016 is integral with the shaft...making it significantly
more difficult than a standard pinion gear. But as mentioned, the real culprit is quantity. We get spoiled by the low cost of some components.
$ 175 gearsets, $ 200 billet distributors, $ 400 Holley carbs, $ 150 intake manifolds, etc etc etc are all flaming bargains considering initial
development cost and cost to manufacture custom stuff is today.
And I can assure you Ford paid more than $ 70 each for the 5,000 trannies
they bought for the Ford GT.
MikeD
more difficult than a standard pinion gear. But as mentioned, the real culprit is quantity. We get spoiled by the low cost of some components.
$ 175 gearsets, $ 200 billet distributors, $ 400 Holley carbs, $ 150 intake manifolds, etc etc etc are all flaming bargains considering initial
development cost and cost to manufacture custom stuff is today.
And I can assure you Ford paid more than $ 70 each for the 5,000 trannies
they bought for the Ford GT.
MikeD
If you are using a SBF, why not consider a 6-speed. I have a source who can get you a custom-prepared Getrag 01E, 6-speed transaxle, like mine, which is beefed-up and rebuilt (upgraded rear main bearings, altered spigot shaft and altered clutch fork) to comfortably handle 400 HP.
My 6-speed transaxle has a 3.50 1st gear; 1.888 2nd gear; 1.230 3rd gear; 0.933 4th gear; 0.729 5th gear with a 0.600 6th gear and a final drive of 3.875. With the engine at 5500 rpm, the gears are nicely spaced as follows: 1st Gear=32 mph, 2nd Gear=60 mph, 3rd Gear=91 mph, 4th Gear=120 mph, 5th Gear=154 mph and 6th Gear=187 mph.
If anyone is interested, let me know. It can be ordered with SBF adapter, clutch, flywheel, pressure plate, throw-out bearing, clutch slave cylinder, starter, etc...everything needed.
My 6-speed transaxle has a 3.50 1st gear; 1.888 2nd gear; 1.230 3rd gear; 0.933 4th gear; 0.729 5th gear with a 0.600 6th gear and a final drive of 3.875. With the engine at 5500 rpm, the gears are nicely spaced as follows: 1st Gear=32 mph, 2nd Gear=60 mph, 3rd Gear=91 mph, 4th Gear=120 mph, 5th Gear=154 mph and 6th Gear=187 mph.
If anyone is interested, let me know. It can be ordered with SBF adapter, clutch, flywheel, pressure plate, throw-out bearing, clutch slave cylinder, starter, etc...everything needed.
Alex Hirsbrunner
Lifetime Supporter
Hi RamboLambo,
Hypoid gears are still made on dedicated machinery like this old beast:
GLEASON 608/609 Hypoid Gear Manufacturing Set
A five plus axis CNC may be able to turn out any imaginable gearset, but even today, old school tools like this crank out product way faster and with much higher quality. A CNC tool still has to make many many passes per gear tooth face with a standard cutter that leaves small but still detectable tool paths in the finished product (some of which can be removed by mechanical processing/polishing), where a dedicated machine like this typically hobs out teeth with a single tool.
Regards,
Al
Hypoid gears are still made on dedicated machinery like this old beast:
GLEASON 608/609 Hypoid Gear Manufacturing Set
A five plus axis CNC may be able to turn out any imaginable gearset, but even today, old school tools like this crank out product way faster and with much higher quality. A CNC tool still has to make many many passes per gear tooth face with a standard cutter that leaves small but still detectable tool paths in the finished product (some of which can be removed by mechanical processing/polishing), where a dedicated machine like this typically hobs out teeth with a single tool.
Regards,
Al
There have been machines available to cut ring and pinion sets for far longer than there have been multi-axis CNC machines. As far as the extra length of the pinion shaft on this set is concerned that should be a minor matter as that is a simple lathe project. With the CAD programs available to design the gears it shouldn't really be that hard to get the dimensions correct. The whole problem comes down to volume. If you want thousands of pieces it is easy to get a company to do it, but few of them will do a small run. It today's manufacturing world it just doesn't pay.
Have any of you ever been to an automotive manufacturing plant and watched parts being machined? Its quite incredible to see the parts just 'flowing' out of the machines. Yes they are set up for volume manufacturing. But check out the Gleeson cutter on the link above. You cant tell me it takes months, weeks or even many days to set one of these up to do a cut? Once its set, it must be just a matter of changing the steel blank for machining. Hence, if you have say 50 billets ready to go, just change them as they are cut.
As for the secondary (output shaft), these could be made in a multi-step process. The initial cuts can be done in a CNC lathe, then popped into the Gleeson cutter for the pinion gear cut, then into a hobbing cutter for the gears and splines. Finally after the heat treatment into a surface grinder for the bearing surfaces.
I had a new 1-peice input shaft made like this for my UN1-13 box. The original shaft was done manually, but when discussed with my machinist, he was quite happy to set it up one with a CNC program to knock out the shafts, pre gearcutting, on one of their machines. Doing a small production run of even 10 units was not that expensive.
I believe there is a guy in Rotorua (New Zealand) who has one of the Gleeson cutter machines, but I sense the monopoly could well reflect in his pricing, but who knows.
I would also think that there would be more than one of the gleeson machines in the southern hemisphere. For instance, who makes all the diff units for Holden, Ford, Mitusbishi, Toyota etc in Australia?
As for the secondary (output shaft), these could be made in a multi-step process. The initial cuts can be done in a CNC lathe, then popped into the Gleeson cutter for the pinion gear cut, then into a hobbing cutter for the gears and splines. Finally after the heat treatment into a surface grinder for the bearing surfaces.
I had a new 1-peice input shaft made like this for my UN1-13 box. The original shaft was done manually, but when discussed with my machinist, he was quite happy to set it up one with a CNC program to knock out the shafts, pre gearcutting, on one of their machines. Doing a small production run of even 10 units was not that expensive.
I believe there is a guy in Rotorua (New Zealand) who has one of the Gleeson cutter machines, but I sense the monopoly could well reflect in his pricing, but who knows.
I would also think that there would be more than one of the gleeson machines in the southern hemisphere. For instance, who makes all the diff units for Holden, Ford, Mitusbishi, Toyota etc in Australia?
It seems like there are many possibilities out there to get a cheap upgrade for the Audi boxes. All we need now is for someone to actually make it happen.
Mick did it and it and it costs AU$2,800.00 a set. When someone comes up with a quality set under AU$1000.00 I will be the first in line. $70.00 a set and I will take five.
Bud and Mike 100% correct.
Mick did it and it and it costs AU$2,800.00 a set. When someone comes up with a quality set under AU$1000.00 I will be the first in line. $70.00 a set and I will take five.
Bud and Mike 100% correct.
No offense guys, but this horse has been beaten to death. The big problem is QUANTITY. When you pay someone to design and build the first units (as I did under agreement with GTA and the Gear vender in Australia) if you aren't aware you will quickly discover that you are paying for the design time and overhead associated with it (the CAD designer gets a paycheck, the software costs $, the cute girl making coffee at the office gets a paycheck, etc). Remember that the shop doing this work expects to make a profit. Production is then another thing entirely. Again, machine time and materials cost $, and don't forget the guy doing this is also paying more overhead and expects a profit. After you build a real part, then you have to fit it to a transaxle and get someone to drive it to do some real road tests. I did all of this and I know exactly what it costs. You need to get over the idea of "cheap" upgrades for a very low quantity of people interested in fitting Audi 016's to V8's. Now if you think the price at GTA is too high, then feel free to go buy your G50 or whatever.
Did any of you ever bother to ask GTA the cost of a complete 016 rebuild (not including the R&P and LSD)? I believe the price is about $2000 USD. Now, you can have your 016 rebuilt from them with the 3.22 R&P and a Quaif LSD (price for the LSD alone is about $1300 USD). So, can you do the math? What does that R&P seem to cost? You're getting a decent deal for a quality product when all is said and done. I didn't say "cheap," I said "decent." If you don't agree, then you're free to vote with your dollars and do something else.
Bottom line IMHO - if you're looking for "cheap" anything, you shouldn't be thinking about building/buying a quality GT40 replica.
Enough preaching - now if you want to see something special, go look at the pics of the Superformance MK1 on the other thread. Wow!!!
Mitch D
Did any of you ever bother to ask GTA the cost of a complete 016 rebuild (not including the R&P and LSD)? I believe the price is about $2000 USD. Now, you can have your 016 rebuilt from them with the 3.22 R&P and a Quaif LSD (price for the LSD alone is about $1300 USD). So, can you do the math? What does that R&P seem to cost? You're getting a decent deal for a quality product when all is said and done. I didn't say "cheap," I said "decent." If you don't agree, then you're free to vote with your dollars and do something else.
Bottom line IMHO - if you're looking for "cheap" anything, you shouldn't be thinking about building/buying a quality GT40 replica.
Enough preaching - now if you want to see something special, go look at the pics of the Superformance MK1 on the other thread. Wow!!!
Mitch D
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Mitch, to answer your question, yes, I did ask (two weeks ago) what is the cost of a standard 016 rebuild and they said it's $2,200 plus the shipping to and from their shop in Oregon.
And, again to be specific, the 016 built up with the LSD is $4,350 plus a 5N to start with (additional $600 to GTA if you don't have a spare 5N sitting around). For $5,000 I'll buy a G50 and put at least $1,000 in the bank.
And, again to be specific, the 016 built up with the LSD is $4,350 plus a 5N to start with (additional $600 to GTA if you don't have a spare 5N sitting around). For $5,000 I'll buy a G50 and put at least $1,000 in the bank.
Cliff - does your hypothetical G50 for $4k come completely rebuilt including a torque sensing LSD such as the Quaife? I believe GTA will sell the 016 w/3.22 R&P without the LSD too, and this puts a trans in your car for about $3k (yes - assuming you source your own 016, but come on, you can't swing a dead cat in the US without hitting a salvage yard with plenty of them). I've owned plenty of porsches and still do (just took delivery of my new 997 Carrera 4S), and the G50 is a fine trans. However, like everything else porsche, all the bits and labor cost big money compared to parts for an Audi 016.
I don't want to stray off course too much on this thread - the original question was who would be interested in buying a low 3.xx R&P for the Audi 016. I was merely trying to add some insight to the original question. I determined that few people really pony up money and place an order. Too many people are sitting around waiting for a panacea for the Audi 016 ratios where the total cost is on the order of a couple hundred dollars. Well, it's not likely to happen.
There's plenty of transaxle choices out there for your GT40, and frankly none of them are inexpensive.
Mitch D
PS - I can't stop looking at those beautiful pics of the SF MK1. Jeez, Ron, did you have to post those!?!?!
I don't want to stray off course too much on this thread - the original question was who would be interested in buying a low 3.xx R&P for the Audi 016. I was merely trying to add some insight to the original question. I determined that few people really pony up money and place an order. Too many people are sitting around waiting for a panacea for the Audi 016 ratios where the total cost is on the order of a couple hundred dollars. Well, it's not likely to happen.
There's plenty of transaxle choices out there for your GT40, and frankly none of them are inexpensive.
Mitch D
PS - I can't stop looking at those beautiful pics of the SF MK1. Jeez, Ron, did you have to post those!?!?!
Cliff,
You'll still need to throw a little more money at the G50 above its inital cost. Since it requires flipping the box upside down, you'll need to relocate the fill hole, add a new drain hole, plug the original vent, and add a vent to what is now the top (requires at least partial dis-assembly). Many recommend adding a spray bar, though I'm not sure how necessary it is for a street application (That work would be rather costly if you elected to do it). Better pull the $1000 back out of the bank
Additionally, the gearing on the G50 is a little short for a light weight V8 powered car, so you've in essence gained nothing from that perspective. I believe there's only one year G50 with taller gears (turbo, I think), and that transaxle will cost considerably more. I'm not up on my Porsche parts, but how easy is it to find a G50 with LSD?
Choice? A used G50 with the above mentioned conditions, or a reputably rebuilt 016 with suitable gearing.
Andys
You'll still need to throw a little more money at the G50 above its inital cost. Since it requires flipping the box upside down, you'll need to relocate the fill hole, add a new drain hole, plug the original vent, and add a vent to what is now the top (requires at least partial dis-assembly). Many recommend adding a spray bar, though I'm not sure how necessary it is for a street application (That work would be rather costly if you elected to do it). Better pull the $1000 back out of the bank
Additionally, the gearing on the G50 is a little short for a light weight V8 powered car, so you've in essence gained nothing from that perspective. I believe there's only one year G50 with taller gears (turbo, I think), and that transaxle will cost considerably more. I'm not up on my Porsche parts, but how easy is it to find a G50 with LSD?
Choice? A used G50 with the above mentioned conditions, or a reputably rebuilt 016 with suitable gearing.
Andys
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