NEWS FROM RBT--2 Jan 2007

Hi guys,

I have watched with interest and read the various posts going on about Lloyd Butfoy and RBT Transmissions (which technically stands for Roy Butfoy Transmissions Transmissions, something that bugs me no end). Particularly on the Superformance forum, there is much moaning and hand-wringing about the availability (or lack thereof) of Mister Butfoy, and the big question mark about the completion date for various gearboxes.

Lloyd and I have been friends for the better part of 15 years, so I decided to simply pay him a visit and see how things are going. I am pleased to report that Lloyd is alive and well, and your orders have not been lost or forgotten. :)

Here is a photo that I shot inside his shop.

These are all used transaxles that customers have sent in to be overhauled. Most are from Panteras, although there are a few from the BMW M1 or original GT40s, and the occasional Mangusta. Some of the gearboxes in this photo are being converted from their original Pantera configuration to be used in a GT40, which I learned is not as trivial as simply flipping the ring and pinion. He pointed out some of the many modifications that need to be made to enable the gearbox to function inverted.

All the new gearboxes are being screwed together in Texas by his business partner, Oliver. Lloyd told me that every single part in those gearboxes is new, whereas with the gearboxes in his California shop, to keep costs down and with concurrence of the owner, he often tries to salvage good used parts (one friend's gearbox was there with a crack in the back part of the case, and Lloyd was able to supply a used replacement that was in perfect shape at a considerable cost savings).

Lloyd told me that some people are rather desperate to get their gearboxes--Fran Kress actually sent a blank, signed check along with a plea to get his gearbox turned quickly! But there is an established queue, and it takes awhile to move to the front of the line. My friend had taken his gearbox there on October 14, 2006, and on January 2, 2007, Lloyd had partially dismantled it (all the gears were still on the mainshaft but it was otherwise apart), diagnosed the crack in the case and sourced a replacement piece from his inventory. He estimated that the gearbox would be completed and out the door in about 4-8 weeks. He said that his ambition is to complete 3-4 gearboxes a week.

Until recently he was working alone; in the photo you can barely see his new part-time helper behind him. This fellow has just come on board here and is helping to deal with the backlog; he is basically an apprentice and is learning from Lloyd how to do the work, although from what I could see, his job seems to be limited to taking things apart, and Lloyd still does the artisan work of diagnosing the problems and then fixing them, and putting things back together.

Oliver in Texas has reportedly hired several people to help him, and hopes to have them all trained up and ready to go by the end of January. Curiously, the gearboxes he builds all are shipped to Lloyd in California, who I guess does some final assembly work and quality control, before shipping them to the customers.

I asked Lloyd what the wait would be if a customer placed a new gearbox order today, and he said that if all goes well, it would be shipped to the customer in about two and a half months, which is a great improvement over the recent past. Gearbox overhauls can take longer, because there is considerably more work involved, depending on the condition of the gearbox to begin with.

Lloyd told me that some people were downright belligerant, demanding instant gratification and getting obnoxious when they are told that they are going to have to wait in line behind everybody else. He said that he has offered to send several checks back to people who crossed over the line of civility.

The bottom line is, there is only so much that one man (or one man plus a partner and a few helpers) can do in a given amount of time, and it's important to remain patient and understanding.

Remember, Lloyd's business was running flat-out before the explosion of interest in the GT40, so he has had a lot to cope with lately. But I saw a whole bunch of new gearbox orders tacked to his bulletin board (FAX is the preferred method of submitting an order), and each of them will be filled in due time, with the same high quality that RBT has always been known for.

So, for any of you that were worried because your phone calls were unanswered (Lloyd was working the whole time we were talking, and the phone was ringing constantly, and he told me that he was committed to finishing the job at hand before attending to phone calls later in the day), and your e-mails ignored (he doesn't go near the computer anymore, as his inbox is flooded with 2000-3000 e-mails at any given time), rest assured that he WILL get to your job, eventually, and you will be happy with the result.

If you need to communicate with Lloyd, the best thing to do is simply to send him a FAX explaining briefly what the issue is, and with return contact information. He does return phone calls at some point during the day, and he will get back to you eventually.

Feel free to e-mail me privately at [email protected] if you have any questions.

Cheers!
 

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JimmyMac

Lifetime Supporter
This concurs with my experience of RBT and Lloyd.

Lloyd seldom answered my mail, however always returned my calls when I was one of his customers.
My view is that he is a no-nonsence man who works hard, obviously with a rare skill but with high demand for his services, and he recognises that his time is better spent at his bench rather than at a computer. And, if a cheque book can't facilitate preferential treatment then one may assume that everybody is treated equally with respect and service, truly rare these days.
My overseas order was delivered exactly on time as quoted, so possibly some dealers are using false lead times for RBT as contingency in their manufacturing programme.

Not many folk know that he was born in England, at Farnborough I believe when his father worked over here on GT40s so this heritage as well as his work ethics should be good enough for most, any day.
 
Last edited:
Just curious

Is Lloyd and Roy Butfoy the same guy? Roy Butfoy used to back up to our unit in So. California and pick up our ZF for the BMW M1 we ran for Dennis Aase and Kendall Racing when I worked with GT Racing Services in the early 80's. Just curious.
Chris
Historic Race Car Replicas
 
Lloyd may be a fine individual....but reading the above I confess I am not impressed. If you open a business, you should be prepared to answer
customer correspondence in a timely and professional manner.
Hire a temp if necessary.

If RBT was doing a "booming" business before the GT40 "explosion",
then certainly this additional business warranted additional business
expenditure to keep your customers informed.

MikeD
 
Hey Major Mike,
Why does RBT not "expand" to accomidate the "explosion"? Seems to make better business sense to me (?) Make more money and make more people happy with the experience of dealing with your company. BTW quit following me around to forums I am on, loser <LOL> So you want a GT40? .... that's all you need. Another toy :p
 

Mark Charlton

GT40s Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
I'm willing to bet that Lloyd seriously considers every resume he receives by anyone with extensive ZF rebuild experience.

RBT has a great reputation for quality ZF work and the current overload of orders will not likely be an indicator of sustainable long-term business. Unfortunately for those wanting a ZF, he’s the guy and nobody wants to take no for an answer.

Years ago my best client expanded wildly and wanted me to grow along at the same rate. I decided to pass on the extra business and let others fulfil a demand that I knew couldn’t last. A couple of my competitors expanded too quickly, produced crap and then couldn’t survive when the tech bubble burst. Guess who’s still in business?

Be patient with Lloyd. As they say: over time, the pain of a short delay beats the sting of poor quality.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Simply expand? Maybe the guy REALLY takes his work seriously and wants to do it himself correctly the first time. A reputation of a slightly long wait is much easier to live with than one of constantly fixing, and paying for it, some else's work that was not done correctly the first time. Gearboxes don't just not work, they break really expensive stuff if they are not put together right.

If it is a couple of months, then so be it. Building these cars is an enjoyable hobby. Establishing a personal relationship with people like Lloyd is one of the benefits of a cool hobby. I've been building my car for 5 years and I'm still not done meeting really talented people who over time become friends.


This is the nature of a hobby. Learning, meeting , doing, and spending time with new friends. If you just want a new car toot sweet then buy a corvette.

OR plan ahead a little. Couldn't hurt.
 

charlie

Lifetime Supporter
I learn this the hard way

Hi

In my 38 years as an engineer I have learn this lesson all too well.

Charlie

PayMeNowverySmall.jpg
 
Mesa said:
Hey Major Mike,
Why does RBT not "expand" to accomidate the "explosion"? Seems to make better business sense to me (?) Make more money and make more people happy with the experience of dealing with your company. BTW quit following me around to forums I am on, loser <LOL> So you want a GT40? .... that's all you need. Another toy :p

It's amazing who you find online sometimes. Rob and I have been friends for the better part of 20 years, although I haven't seen or heard from him in a few years--he doesn't get out much. :)

As for your question, Lloyd would GLADLY hire anybody who was fully qualified to work on these gearboxes--in fact he has tried to get additional help from people who are in the business and routinely buy parts from him. The problem is, there are only a handful of such people, and all of them are fully consumed with their own businesses and don't have time to drop their customers and products to help Lloyd solve his backlog problem.

And taking the time to train an apprentice up to his level would just put him that much further behind on gearbox delivery. So for the time being, his apprentices take care of the easy jobs (Lloyd doesn't need to be scraping gaskets or degreasing parts), and he steps in when the artisan work starts.

Lloyd tried to move to a larger premises around the corner (a defunct Honda dealership, 6500 square feet) a few months ago, but that deal fell apart when another potential tenant showed up with bags of money and threw them overhand at the landlord. :(

Lloyd's medium-term ambition is to move to a large facility, and move the whole Texas manufacturing operation out to California so everything is under one roof. That has its own set of complexities, for moving Oliver might be easy enough (that is, as easy as it ever is to get somebody to pick up stakes and move across the country), but whatever help Oliver currently has would probably remain behind, so the hiring/training process would have to start all over. And let's not forget that during the movement phase, manufacturing would shut down as well. I would guess that if the move was completed in only two months, it would actually cause a three or four month disruption in gearbox supply to customers.

Be careful of what you wish for--you might just get it! :(
 
Gentlemen

Apparently I wasn't clear...my response was that Lloyd should hire a temp to handle his correspondence to keep customers (or potential customers)
from becoming frustrated. A friendly voice for $ 10/hour to answer calls/faxes/letters/e-mail would pay off in the end.

MikeD
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
Great news, Mike. It's been a long wait.

Doug
 

Steve Briscoe

Lifetime Supporter
Hey Mike (Drew)-
Thanks for all the updates on RBT! You seem to know a lot about the ZF and the circumstances surrounding recent developments at RBT. If you know, would you mind commenting on the manufacturing and assembly differences between the ZF from... let's say 1974, and the present? Four months ago, Dennis Quella (Pantera Performance, Castle Rock, Colorado) rebuilt the ZF in my Pantera. It was an expensive but needed repair and I was happy to have such a qualified source so close to help. It would be interesting to know your opinion about what the differences are between the tranny that was put in cars 35 years ago and the same tranny today.

I wish RBT the best. I hope the business grows and expands to the point of becoming one of the best transaxle sources in the world. That would permit a little overhead for reception, phone answering, order taking, etc.

Thank you.
Steve
 
60-61 said:
Hey Mike (Drew)-
Thanks for all the updates on RBT! You seem to know a lot about the ZF and the circumstances surrounding recent developments at RBT.

I pretty much eat, breathe and sleep Panteras, which means that I'm familiar not only with the hardware but also the personalities involved.


60-61 said:
If you know, would you mind commenting on the manufacturing and assembly differences between the ZF from... let's say 1974, and the present?

>>>The principal difference is in the gearbox case. The BMW M1 used a beefed-up version of the 5-DS25-2 gearbox. Under extreme racing use, the Pantera-style case used to crack right at the front of the horizontal section, along the seam between the flat part of the case, and the angled bit which then attached to the bellhousing. The M1 case was seriously reinforced in this area. All of Lloyd's new gearboxes are built using an M-1 style case.

Internally, I believe they were (and are) identical; the only difference might be the internal gear ratios, and I'd be willing to bet (meaning, now I'm guessing) that they are the same as the 1972-and-later Pantera ratios.

60-61 said:
Four months ago, Dennis Quella (Pantera Performance, Castle Rock, Colorado) rebuilt the ZF in my Pantera. It was an expensive but needed repair and I was happy to have such a qualified source so close to help.

Consider yourself lucky. FWIW Dennis Quella also rebuilt my Pantera gearbox, back in 1993 or so (he actually had it in his shop for 2-3 years!

60-61 said:
It would be interesting to know your opinion about what the differences are between the tranny that was put in cars 35 years ago and the same tranny today.

I have no specific knowledge, but I would guess that for all practical purposes, they are totally identical.

60-61 said:
I wish RBT the best. I hope the business grows and expands to the point of becoming one of the best transaxle sources in the world. That would permit a little overhead for reception, phone answering, order taking, etc.

Agreed. Lloyd is under enormous pressure right now (and I'm not just talking about business pressure), so such a solution might not be as simple as you think.

Patience, all....

Cheers!
 

Steve Briscoe

Lifetime Supporter
Thanks Mike. If you talk with Lloyd, please convey appreciation for his work and ask if there are any planned changes in the ZF as we move forward. I'm sure thousands of ZF transmission owners have produced a short list on what should be considered for the future.

Since the transmission is quite similar, I'll apply the techniques I've learned from the older ZF to the new ZF from RBT.
1) No burnouts.:)
2) Shift down into 1st gear before engaging Reverse.
3) While the transmission is cold, shift from first to third.
4) Wait until the transmission is at operating temperature before banging into second gear with a big grin on my face.
5) After vigorous use, continue operating the transmission easily until is cools a little.
6) Service regularly.
Frankly, the list if very similar to Ferrari recommendations.
 
Just as a side note here, I was able to order my ZF from Lloyd last month, communicating by phone and by fax. I understand he is very busy, but things get done.
 
60-61 said:
1) No burnouts.:)
2) Shift down into 1st gear before engaging Reverse.
3) While the transmission is cold, shift from first to third.
4) Wait until the transmission is at operating temperature before banging into second gear with a big grin on my face.
5) After vigorous use, continue operating the transmission easily until is cools a little.
6) Service regularly.
Frankly, the list if very similar to Ferrari recommendations.

You are right. My Ferrari gearbox has exactly the same issues. First is oil temperature issues, then second the dogleg shift. specially the 1st/rev thing, having the gears and syncros on the same shaft .....
 
Re: Just curious

actvpwr said:
Is Lloyd and Roy Butfoy the same guy? Roy Butfoy used to back up to our unit in So. California and pick up our ZF for the BMW M1 we ran for Dennis Aase and Kendall Racing when I worked with GT Racing Services in the early 80's. Just curious.
Chris
Historic Race Car Replicas

Hi Chris - Lloyd is Roy's son. Unfortunately Roy passed away a few years ago; a great loss to motorsport. I remember he rang me at 4.30am one Sunday not having properly worked out the time change to Western Australia!
 
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