The Price of Transaxles - Why are Transaxles Expensive?

[AdrianBurton]

I have to agree with Wyoming, if your prices were lower your product could reach a larger market. Second why would you not continue to market a proven product? Look at the success of the ZF, it has been virtually unchanged since the initial release for the Pantera.

We would support that especially if it were price competitive with what we could rebuild from a salvage yard.

[John Lowe]

I'm with Wanni on this one

I fear Wanni's sums could not change that dramatically simply because of the nature of the market. I do not know how many mid engined specialist cars in the 500lbft plus (677Nm) are produced annually worldwide but I bet the numbers are pretty small. Knock out the specialist manufacturers like Ferrari and Porsche and you are left with (By mass or large batch manufacturing standards) very low volumes indeed. Then factor in that a number of players are already competing for a slice (Gearfox, Ricardo, Elite etc), with two new ones poised to enter the market (Quaife and Mendeola) and you have a (relatively) high cost of entry, low volume high risk business scenario which always results in High Prices

John

[domtoni]

Wanni and John Lowe hit it right on. Remember, Europe is not a cheap place to make anything. The UK did not become the most expensive country in Europe for nothing.

I'll bet a box could be made in China if an interested party could be found (?). Given the market, I would not expect this.

[Russ Noble]

Originally Posted by domtoni

Wanni and John Lowe hit it right on. Remember, Europe is not a cheap place to make anything. The UK did not become the most expensive country in Europe for nothing.

I'll bet a box could be made in China if an interested party could be found (?). Given the market, I would not expect this.

Yep. Do the manufacturing in China. DON'T use Chinese bearings. Spread the manufacturing of the different individual parts amongst several suppliers so they don't know what they've got and can't copy the entire product. Choose top of the line manufacturers and quality will not be a problem. Do final assembly in your own country, or somewhere that you can have total control of QC for the assembly process. Who's going to be first?

Cheers

[John Lowe]

Russ

So you design a box somewhere there is the expertise, produce prototypes, test and develop them then find a number of Chinese specialist manufacturers skilled in the manufacture of very high quality very low volume () production . You supply them with detailed specifications and drawings, ship the components half way round the world then quality check assemble and test back where the costs are very high and still make money?

Give it a go mate, sounds a breeze.

Still dreeemin' of my RCR and hoping Quaife gets it right

John

[wanni]

Friends,
I have another issue which is pulling my hand brake.
My transmission is designed to be modular for fitting a more then one place.
Possibility for having the diff axle above ( dry sumps ) or below ( wet sumps ) the engine axle.
Possibility for 3 shiftings mode, H pattern for purists, manual sequential for sport drivers and automated for sofistication fans.
Possibility for 7 different final drives.
Possibility for synchro or dog
Possibility for 12 different input shafts
Possibility for 3 different output flanges
Possibility for aluminium cases or magnesium cases

With all those possibilities, which are making more sellable the product, but under specification request. For that, my costs wont get lower. I shall produce 10 bevel sets by 7 any time. It is completely different of producing 70 bevel sets all the same.
I have a store with 1,5 MIO €uro of parts, but if I get an order for 20 units all the same I can' t supply without manufacturing more bits.
It is quiet tricky.
But I can not complain...the business is running well enough.
Regards
Wanni

[wanni]

Forgot to add the conclusions........
give this ammount of possibility to be managed from a chinese company.....and let me know the results.
Ciao
Wanni

[AdrianBurton]

I understand all of that, I am an engineer also. But my question still remains, isnt there still a product that you have produced in the past that all of the tooling is paid for that will still function in out applications, that wont cost 20k, that is better than the porsche?

[wanni]

My friend,
unfortunately this is the first product made, but in a modular way.
Something that nobody takes care are the warranties.
At the beginning, nothing, fucking works as you have planed.
You shall throw away a lot of expensive parts and replace them with other more expensive.
The testing made by a reality like mine, is insufficient to garranty to match all the conditions. For example, who was thinking that for air shipping a gasket problem would occur??? - 52°C in the luggage room of a plane were not considered. And this is a stupid cause of troubles.
On the bench only safety tests has been made on a "RODEO" test rig simulating dynamicly accelerations, decelerations and cornerings. The transmission was full of plexiglass windows, in order to see internally what happens and a stroboscopic lamp was used to stop in movement all the gears one by one. After being sure of having a correct lubrication in any conditions we wend in a vehicle.
All the testing made, was concentrated on safety, confort and functionality purposes, made by a top and very expensive professional test driver.
- I rented a Pagani Zonda where I installed the proto unit -
1) Functional shifting tests with measurments. It toke 4 months to reach a good level of shifting quality.
2) Endurance test start. We assumed that 30.000 kms hardly made by a professional test driver were sufficient to feel confortable in starting a preserie production.
3) 30.000 kms made in this way: 5% in the city traffic – 25% on mountain roads – 30% on extra urban roads – 20% on the motorway and the final 20% on the Nardò test track at high speed –
After some cooling accessories adjustments, we could start to push hardly on the gas pedal.
An AMG V12 7,1 L a bit tuned was used – 580 HP and 750 Nm – Michelin Pilot Sport 335/35- 18 were in charge to transfer the torque through a 1,1 as adherence coefficient.
You can not imagine the amount of petrol and rear tires has been used, as well as 2 clutches.
This was made all in August 2000.
4) At the end of the endurance test, we decide to do a misuse test as well, while we had 3 more days paid for the track facilities. We installed a set of slick tires and we did all the worse actions against a gearbox on the dynamic track. About 1.000 Km more of tortures.

What do you think??? I was sure about a full success………..

The first 2 lots of pre-serie have been a bath of blood. Nobody was considering the change of production process, from accurate prototyping to standard production.
75% of cases leaking, 90% of final drives singing like Pavarotti, 90% of shifting quality problems, and so on without mentioning the wrong set up of the LSD. At the beginning we were using a ZF LSD with clutches. Too aggressive and dangerous. The car was oversteering in parking. Move to a TORQUE BIASING unit….successful, but throw away 50 crown wheels.
Overheating problems due to the different applications……rear cover re-design in order to allow an oil circulation through a cooler….successful………but the winter arrived.
Impossibility to shift while the lubricant is cold due to an extremely high pressure generated by the pump….add an over-pressure cutter…..successful….but throw away 50 rear covers.
Summer again and some clients are burning everything…..for not using the correct size of piping, they were generating a too high back pressure and the over-pressure valve was always open. The oil was never reaching the end of the shafts…….drill an internal by pass in order to avoid high back pressures…successful.
And so on….I have mentioned only some of the things that they MUST occur according to the LAW OF MURPHY….because believe me, he is always sitting next to you.

I hope this will clarify more your curiosities.
Regards
Wanni

[wanni]

I forgot,
it is far to be such a good gearbox like the Porsche, but it takes 900Nm and the Porsche not. Porsche build enough cars to afford a specific synchronisation system, for me, it already a goal if somebody permits me to adapt his synchro system..........shall I continue????Porsche can afford much more tests....I repeat that the million €uros spent for insufficient testing, splitted on 400 units, encreases the cost of the unit of about 2.500 €. The 5 millions €uros spent by Porsche for testing purposes splitted on 10.000 units are generating an additional cost of only 500 €uros per transmission. Shall I go on???
Ciao
Wanni

[Rick Muck- Mark IV]

Wanni makes a good point, you might think you have "idiot-proofed" a product but history shows that here are better idiots in the field. How happy would you be with a gearbox that had a comfortable price point but went south when you "got on it?"

While not always true, the old adage "you get what you pay for" is probably true with transaxles.

[wanni]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Wanni makes a good point, you might think you have "idiot-proofed" a product but history shows that here are better idiots in the field. How happy would you be with a gearbox that had a comfortable price point but went south when you "got on it?"

While not always true, the old adage "you get what you pay for" is probably true with transaxles.

DO NOT UNDERSTAND
How happy would you be with a gearo a confortable price point but went south when you got in it.

[wanni]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Wanni makes a good point, you might think you have "idiot-proofed" a product but history shows that here are better idiots in the field. How happy would you be with a gearbox that had a comfortable price point but went south when you "got on it?"

While not always true, the old adage "you get what you pay for" is probably true with transaxles.

Also there is another point,
by being an OEM supplyer, I am expecting superior standards that some adventurers might not. Who knows??? Or simply I have no luck.
Ciao

[domtoni]

Guys,

Coming from the OEM world, Wanni is not wrong.

That stuff happens. You need a big development budget.

The China idea was classic 21st century thinking. To quote an Italian friend from the industrial power transmission world,

"the Chinese make product like we did in the 1960s and 1970s - read, do a design, build two prototypes, do some quick testing and put the new product into production to be sorted out during its product lifetime.

Best
Dom

[Ron Earp]

This is a good discussion fellows, but it is far from Mendola transaxles at this point. A bunch of good info on transaxle discussion and design will be lost in the future to most casual searchers due to it being buried here.

[wanni]

RON,
move everything in a new thread called: why transaxles are so expensive?
Just a suggestion.
Regards
Wanni

[Ron Earp]

Admin Note:

This thread was split off from the Mendola Transaxle thread which can be found here:

Mendeola's new GT40 transaxle...

This thread is for discussion on costs of transaxles.

Ron