The Price of Transaxles - Why are Transaxles Expensive? - Page 3

David Briggs · 11-19-07, 12:18 AM

Why can't a company that has the production capacity license build a proven transaxle (the ZF for example) and avoid the research and start up costs?
I only mention this because the apparent low demand for this type of transaxle is never going to result in an affordable, new box with the reliability and user friendliness of a auto manufacturers effort.
It is wonderful to discuss paddle shifted 6 speeds but unless someone can repackage a successful, existing design into a GT40 package I don't see how this will work.
I don't know very many people interested in paying $25,000 for a gearbox for a car that is owner built.
If money was no object we would probably all be driving something different.
IMHO

Jac Mac · 11-19-07, 02:09 AM

Where I have trouble with this is most of you go out and buy wheels from that guy, brakes from somewhere else, your engines are like a telephone directory of hot rod vendors, the bits n pieces to connect it all up come from a list of car manufacturers , all of which would be unlikely to give any form of warranty if they knew what the end use was, yet when it comes to the T/Axle you choke and pay huge $$$ and expect warranties & after sale service etc. Most Race car stuff is sold with no warranty implied other than it should be in good condition when you receive it.

Jac Mac

Keith Hardy · 11-19-07, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jac mac

Most Race car stuff is sold with no warranty implied other than it should be in good condition when you receive it.

Jac Mac

How very very true.....

AdrianBurton · 11-19-07, 12:18 PM

I have to agree with Jac also, but my question still remains. You have developed other transaxles that have gone thru the evaluation and qualification process in the past. Can you not continue to sell these units? And as Dave put it "It is wonderful to discuss paddle shifted 6 speeds but unless someone can repackage a successful, existing design into a GT40 package I don't see how this will work.
I don't know very many people interested in paying $25,000 for a gearbox for a car that is owner built. " I dont need the latest and greatest, just one that is strong and functional, hopefully for around what a junk yard rebuild would cost.

Adrian

domtoni · 11-19-07, 12:18 PM

Guys,

Wanni barred all, and I would like to see more information from all vendors.

Best
Dom

Mike Dozier · 11-19-07, 08:11 PM

It all boils down to cost of development....and cost of manufacture...both are excruciatingly high compared to say an aluminum engine block or cyinder head. I keep hearing $ 30 or $ 40k per copy for a T-44 which is already developed and tooled. Yet I don't see others jumping at the chance
to "undercut" that price to sell more T-44s.

Bottom line is that high HP/torque capable transaxles will never be comparably priced
to Aftermarket manual transmissions for rear drive vehicles due to their added complexity,
and even smaller customer base. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

IMHO your best shot is to take an existing design tranny and upgrade it,
which essentially is how several in this the market have responded.
Maybe someday when GM finally does a mid-engine Vette we'll see a new " low cost "
hi-performance transaxle.

MikeDD

Jac Mac · 11-19-07, 08:56 PM

I cannot see a company like ZF or any other re-introducing the 'old' product to the market with the knowledge that the engines and tyres alone are capable of damn near doubling the torque loadings that the 289 based engines of the late 60's were able inflict on them. The alloy case is always going to have a deflection problem and while going to a hypoid off center pinion will spread some of that deflection load in other directions it makes long term reliability a problem which Wanni has mentioned in the past. Even the T44 had its problems in development, but as it never reached production we dont know if it would have been a viable option long term and its shift quality would not hold a candle to some of the later trans available now( I am talking street synchro stuff here- once you go to dog engagement straight cut gears all your load force lines are simply trying to force the shafts apart).
Depends what you want at the end of the day-personally I'll be happy with a clunky old 4 speed that I know wont break the bank if I have to rebuild it- but if you must have a $25k-$30k warranteed shiny item to make you feel good go for it, just remember to tick the sheepskin seat cover option box before you get to the checkout- gotta support the Kiwi Wool Industry. takes very good eyesight to ID the TA at 150mph!!

Jac Mac

wanni · 11-21-07, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jac mac

Where I have trouble with this is most of you go out and buy wheels from that guy, brakes from somewhere else, your engines are like a telephone directory of hot rod vendors, the bits n pieces to connect it all up come from a list of car manufacturers , all of which would be unlikely to give any form of warranty if they knew what the end use was, yet when it comes to the T/Axle you choke and pay huge $$$ and expect warranties & after sale service etc. Most Race car stuff is sold with no warranty implied other than it should be in good condition when you receive it.

Jac Mac

NOT CORRECT, READ WHAT'S FOLLOWS

Warranty Conditions.

Transmission Specifications

Max peak input torque – 900 Nm - Max output peak torque - 9,000 Nm
H pattern shifting or manual sequential
Max input r.p.m. 7,500 ( anti clock wise rotation.) – 10,000 r.p.m. with nitrurised pump
Full synchronization for all gears except reverse
Possibility for conversion to TSR specifications.
Input shaft spline and length to suit application.
6 forward speed plus 1 reverse.
Weight estimated at approx 88kg .
Forced lubrication by a GEROTOR pump with exit for thermal exchange driven by the primary shaft.
“Torque sensing” type differential, soft racing unit.
Other differentials might be installed if you request but if so do we will re-issue this contract.
Optional Extras include Oil Cooling / Heat Exchanger

Warranty

A nominal warranty of 15 months is supplied with each transmission. It is possible to extend this to 27 months at time of transmission order/purchase by payment of a further € 750 (Euros).
Technical data and operating mode
6 forward + 1 reverse speed with following ratios:
STANDARD RATIOS: 1st - 2.875 - 2nd - 1.773 - 3rd - 1.267 - 4th - 1.000 - 5th - 0.833
6th - 0.711 or 0.733 - Reverse - 3.00 - Rear Axle / Final Drive - To be chosen

OTHER RATIOS: 1ST …………………… - 2ND …………………… - 3RD ……………………
4TH …………………. - 5TH …………………… - 6TH ……………………
FINAL DRIVE …………………………………………………………………………………………………

• Reverse can be synchronised.
• The maximum inertia to be synchronised is 130 Kg x cm2. Avoid any clutch drag.
• The maximum peak input torque is 900 Nm .The maximum spinning torque is 7,000 Nm
• The best operation of the transmission is between 60 and 90 degrees Celsius and after 1.500 Kms. The shifting performances at delivery are reaching 80% of their capabilities.
• The maximum peak temperature is 120 degrees Celsius.
• The lubricant must meet GL5 specifications with 20 cSt at 100 degrees Celsius (for extremely cold countries 14 cSt at 100 degrees C are permitted)are the general oil specifications if GearFox GFX is not used for this application. Any failure due to insufficient lubrication by using other products is not considered claimable as a warranty. A sample of oil shall be produced with the failed part at any warranty claim.
• The lubricant must be replaced every 15.000 kilometres or every year whichever comes first.
• Min oil flow at 80 degrees C and 6,000 RPM is 15lt x min. Please use appropriate piping size for the cooling system. The minimum oil flow area shall be 80 mm2 .
• In the case of a rear tyre puncture or failure the vehicle must be stopped immediately to avoid any damage to the transmission. The concept of the lubrication system does not allow for the vehicle to be towed or to drive down hill in neutral with the engine off.
• Recommended gear lever ratio is about 1:4.5 for H gate, 1: 2,5-3.0 for S shifting, and the recommended size for the engagement cable is about for forces of 120 Kgs.
A floating/elastic holder for the cable sleeve is warmly recommended on the gearbox side in order to avoid the double bump feeling on the lever.

Gearbox application, installation and relative interfacement must be checked and agreed by GEARFOX personnel prior to any use. With or without this factor, there is always the possibility of an acceptable level of noise especially when the vehicle is using carbon fibre as all or part of the chassis.
According to the above mentioned specifications and conditions the transmission is guaranteed for a period of 15 months from shipping date, as indicated on shipping documents issued by Gearfox TC srl for DEMO vehicles except for different agreements (e.g. extension of 12 additional month’s warranty) and it is valid for the period of the vehicle manufacturing and recognised only at the vehicle production plant after an internal quality service claim. As soon as the vehicle leaves the assembly plant, and Gearfox TC srl has received by fax, e-mail or other agreed communication method, that the Gearbox number …. on the vehicle number …. Has left to the nominated dealer, the warranty is temporarily frozen until further communication from the vehicle manufacturer to further add the vehicle registration details. From the date of registration the warranty is recognised for a period of 12 months (24 if there has been an agreed warranty extension). The warranty will become invalid if more than 24 months from the shipping date (36 months if extended). This means that the gearbox cannot stay unused for more than 12 months from the shipping date. If this is the case the gearbox must be returned to Gearfox TC srl for checks and upgrades which will be subject to charge.
The term warranty is used to indicate the replacement or repair, free of charge, of any parts in the transmission that Gearfox TC srl (or its nominated agents) personnel have found to be flawed to the manufacturing defects. The transmission dismounting from the vehicle must be agreed with the Gearfox TC srl (or its nominated agents) after sales department as well as the vehicle return to the car manufacturer’s plant.
The warranty does not cover any parts that prove defective as a result of negligence or careless use, erroneous installation or maintenance, maintenance performed by unauthorised personnel or shipping damage. In other words it does not cover anything which cannot be unequivocally attributed to transmission manufacturing defects. Likewise, this warranty does not cover technical intervention for installation of the transmission.
Defects, anomalies and damage due to normal wear, bad weather conditions and natural events are also excluded from the present warranty.
The parts installed under warranty are covered by the warranty for its natural duration. Any piece replaced during the warranty is the property of Gearfox TC srl.
The warranty is recognised at the Gearfox TC srl operational plants at via Molino di Sotto 28a – 40019 S. Agata Bolognese (BO), Italy. If necessary Gearfox TC srl shall replace the transmission with a functioning one. Gearfox TC srl shall reimburse shipping costs only if the warranty conditions for repair are recognised and the gearbox testing sheet
( attached ) is completely filled by the company test driver.
Any operations required on the transmission must be performed solely at Gearfox TC srl headquarters except different agreements between the parts. You shall bear all costs and risks related to shipping.
Gearfox TC srl will not take into consideration any indications received directly from the final customer (vehicle user) since the company shall only recognise communications from yourself.
Gearfox TC srl declines any responsibility for damages, direct or indirect, to persons, animals or things resulting from non-compliance with the prescriptions and in particular the warnings for installation, engine characteristics, and operation and maintenance of the transmission.
Improper use of the transmission will invalidate the warranty. Track use, Dyno testing and road simulation are all improper uses of the transmission. Tampering with seals on the transmission will invalidate the warranty
Use of the transmission for any purpose other than that indicated herein invalidates the warranty. For example, but not limited to this, if the vehicle is used for competition or in a circuit or on a test bench or with components capable to increase the spinning torque.
The warranty is not recognised if Gearfox TC srl is not notified of the problem within 10 days of its discovered or if the transmission arrives at Gearfox TC srl headquarters without the after sales department agreement.

When the last month warranty (except extensions) has elapsed, the transmission is no longer covered by the warranty and you alone are responsible for all technical service costs as per the GearFox TC price list. The sole exception to this is the replacement of lubricant oil, even after the warranty has expired.
The warranty cannot be extended in any way pursuant to intervention.
While you have the rights to the services covered in the above terms of the warranty, withdrawal from the present contract, replacement of the transmission or reduction of the sale price are expressly forbidden, as is the payment of direct or indirect damages.
Except for the warranty set out in this document, GearFox TC does not recognise any other warranty whether explicit, implicit or statutory, including those regarding marketability or suitable for a particular purpose. Any implicit, legally imposed warranty is limited to the duration of this warranty. In no case can GearFox TC srl be held responsible for any occasional, special or consequential damages, including loss of market or profits due to lack of use pursuant or related to the use or performance of the product, even if GearFox TC srl was notified of the onset of such damages.

FOR ACCEPTANCE BY…………………………………….OF THE ABOVE MENTIONED CONDITIONS:

DATE…………/…………./……………………………………………..

STAMP AND SIGNATURE

WARRANTY DURATION:………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

GEARFOX TC SrL CONFIRMATION:

DATE…………/…………./……………………………………………..

STAMP AND SIGNATURE WANNI ALBERTINI

GEARFOX TRANSMISSION CONCEPTS SRL – VIA VOLTA 54/A – 40014 CREVALCORE

SEDE OPERATIVA – VIA MOLINO DI SOTTO 28/A – 40019 S.AGATA BOLOGNESE

FAX 0039 051 6828155 – GEARFOX@GEARFOX.NET – WWW.GEARFOX.NET

THIS WAS THE WARRANTY FOR NEW BOXES. NOW COMES THE REPAIR WARRANTY

GearFox Transaxles Repair

Warranty Conditions.

Vehicle FERRARI F430F1 – Km 85.000 – 15/09/07

A nominal functional warranty of 6 months is supplied with each transmission refurbished by GearFox .
• The maximum inertia to be synchronised is ………… Kg x cm2. Avoid any clutch drag.
• The maximum peak input torque is ……… Nm .The maximum spinning torque is ………… Nm
• The best operation of the transmission is between 60 and 90 degrees Celsius and after 1.500 Kms. The shifting performances at delivery are reaching 80% of their capabilities.
• The maximum peak temperature is 120 degrees Celsius.
• The lubricant must meet GL5 specifications with 20 cSt at 100 degrees Celsius (for extremely cold countries 14 cSt at 100 degrees C are permitted) are the general oil specifications if GearFox GFX is not used for this application.
Any failure due to insufficient lubrication by using other products is not considered claimable as a warranty. A sample of oil shall be produced with the failed part at any warranty claim.
• The lubricant must be replaced every 15.000 kilometres or every year whichever comes first.
• Min oil flow at 80 degrees C and 6,000 RPM is ……………L x min. Please use appropriate piping size for the cooling system. The minimum oil flow area shall be 80 mm2 .
• In the case of a rear tyre puncture or failure the vehicle must be stopped immediately to avoid any damage to the transmission. The concept of the lubrication system does not allow for the vehicle to be towed or to drive down hill in neutral with the engine off.
According to the above mentioned specifications and conditions the transmission is guaranteed for a period of 6 months from the date above.
The term warranty is used to indicate the replacement or repair, free of charge, of any parts in the transmission that Gearfox TC srl (or its nominated agents) personnel have found to be flawed to the manufacturing defects. The transmission dismounting from the vehicle must be agreed with the Gearfox TC srl (or its nominated agents) after sales department as well as the vehicle return to the car maintenance plant.
The warranty does not cover any parts that prove defective as a result of negligence or careless use, erroneous installation or maintenance, maintenance performed by unauthorised personnel or shipping damage. In other words it does not cover anything which cannot be unequivocally attributed to transmission manufacturing defects. Likewise, this warranty does not cover technical intervention for installation of the transmission.
Defects, anomalies and damage due to normal wear, bad weather conditions and natural events are also excluded from the present warranty.
The parts installed under warranty are covered by the warranty for its natural duration. Any piece replaced during the warranty is the property of Gearfox TC srl.
The warranty is recognised at the Gearfox TC srl operational plants at via Molino di Sotto 28a – 40019 S. Agata Bolognese (BO), Italy. Gearfox TC srl shall reimburse shipping costs only if the warranty conditions for repair are recognised.
Any operations required on the transmission must be performed solely at Gearfox TC srl headquarters except different agreements between the parts. You shall bear all costs and risks related to shipping.
Gearfox TC srl will not take into consideration any indications received directly from the final customer (vehicle user) since the company shall only recognise communications from yourself.
Gearfox TC srl declines any responsibility for damages, direct or indirect, to persons, animals or things resulting from non-compliance with the prescriptions and in particular the warnings for installation, engine characteristics, tire characteristics and operation and maintenance of the transmission.
Improper use of the transmission will invalidate the warranty; track use, dyno testing and road simulation are all improper uses of the transmission. Tampering with seals on the transmission will invalidate the warranty.
Use of the transmission for any purpose other than that indicated herein invalidates the warranty. For example, but not limited to this, if the vehicle is used for competition or in a circuit or on a test bench or with components capable to increase the spinning torque.
The warranty is not recognised if Gearfox TC srl is not notified of the problem within 10 days of its discovered or if the transmission arrives at Gearfox TC srl headquarters without the after sales department agreement.
When the last month warranty has elapsed, the transmission is no longer covered by the warranty and you alone are responsible for all technical service costs as per the GearFox TC price list. The sole exception to this is the replacement of lubricant oil, even after the warranty has expired.
The warranty cannot be extended in any way pursuant to intervention.
While you have the rights to the services covered in the above terms of the warranty, withdrawal from the present contract and replacement of the transmission are expressly forbidden, as is the payment of direct or indirect damages.
Except for the warranty set out in this document, GearFox TC does not recognise any other warranty whether explicit, implicit or statutory, including those regarding marketability or suitable for a particular purpose. Any implicit, legally imposed warranty is limited to the duration of this warranty. In no case can GearFox TC srl be held responsible for any occasional, special or consequential damages, including loss of market or profits due to lack of use pursuant or related to the use or performance of the product, even if GearFox TC srl was notified of the onset of such damages.

GearFox Transmission Concepts SrL

Wanni Albertini, CEO

THIS IS JUST TO CLARIFY THAT WE ARE NOT ALL GANGSTERS.

REGARDS

WANNI

wanni · 11-21-07, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jac mac

Where I have trouble with this is most of you go out and buy wheels from that guy, brakes from somewhere else, your engines are like a telephone directory of hot rod vendors, the bits n pieces to connect it all up come from a list of car manufacturers , all of which would be unlikely to give any form of warranty if they knew what the end use was, yet when it comes to the T/Axle you choke and pay huge $$$ and expect warranties & after sale service etc. Most Race car stuff is sold with no warranty implied other than it should be in good condition when you receive it.

Jac Mac

GearFox Transaxles Repair

Warranty Conditions.

Vehicle FERRARI F430F1 – Km 85.000 – 15/09/07

A nominal functional warranty of 6 months is supplied with each transmission refurbished by GearFox .
• The maximum inertia to be synchronised is ………… Kg x cm2. Avoid any clutch drag.
• The maximum peak input torque is ……… Nm .The maximum spinning torque is ………… Nm
• The best operation of the transmission is between 60 and 90 degrees Celsius and after 1.500 Kms. The shifting performances at delivery are reaching 80% of their capabilities.
• The maximum peak temperature is 120 degrees Celsius.
• The lubricant must meet GL5 specifications with 20 cSt at 100 degrees Celsius (for extremely cold countries 14 cSt at 100 degrees C are permitted) are the general oil specifications if GearFox GFX is not used for this application.
Any failure due to insufficient lubrication by using other products is not considered claimable as a warranty. A sample of oil shall be produced with the failed part at any warranty claim.
• The lubricant must be replaced every 15.000 kilometres or every year whichever comes first.
• Min oil flow at 80 degrees C and 6,000 RPM is ……………L x min. Please use appropriate piping size for the cooling system. The minimum oil flow area shall be 80 mm2 .
• In the case of a rear tyre puncture or failure the vehicle must be stopped immediately to avoid any damage to the transmission. The concept of the lubrication system does not allow for the vehicle to be towed or to drive down hill in neutral with the engine off.
According to the above mentioned specifications and conditions the transmission is guaranteed for a period of 6 months from the date above.
The term warranty is used to indicate the replacement or repair, free of charge, of any parts in the transmission that Gearfox TC srl (or its nominated agents) personnel have found to be flawed to the manufacturing defects. The transmission dismounting from the vehicle must be agreed with the Gearfox TC srl (or its nominated agents) after sales department as well as the vehicle return to the car maintenance plant.
The warranty does not cover any parts that prove defective as a result of negligence or careless use, erroneous installation or maintenance, maintenance performed by unauthorised personnel or shipping damage. In other words it does not cover anything which cannot be unequivocally attributed to transmission manufacturing defects. Likewise, this warranty does not cover technical intervention for installation of the transmission.
Defects, anomalies and damage due to normal wear, bad weather conditions and natural events are also excluded from the present warranty.
The parts installed under warranty are covered by the warranty for its natural duration. Any piece replaced during the warranty is the property of Gearfox TC srl.
The warranty is recognised at the Gearfox TC srl operational plants at via Molino di Sotto 28a – 40019 S. Agata Bolognese (BO), Italy. Gearfox TC srl shall reimburse shipping costs only if the warranty conditions for repair are recognised.
Any operations required on the transmission must be performed solely at Gearfox TC srl headquarters except different agreements between the parts. You shall bear all costs and risks related to shipping.
Gearfox TC srl will not take into consideration any indications received directly from the final customer (vehicle user) since the company shall only recognise communications from yourself.
Gearfox TC srl declines any responsibility for damages, direct or indirect, to persons, animals or things resulting from non-compliance with the prescriptions and in particular the warnings for installation, engine characteristics, tire characteristics and operation and maintenance of the transmission.
Improper use of the transmission will invalidate the warranty; track use, dyno testing and road simulation are all improper uses of the transmission. Tampering with seals on the transmission will invalidate the warranty.
Use of the transmission for any purpose other than that indicated herein invalidates the warranty. For example, but not limited to this, if the vehicle is used for competition or in a circuit or on a test bench or with components capable to increase the spinning torque.
The warranty is not recognised if Gearfox TC srl is not notified of the problem within 10 days of its discovered or if the transmission arrives at Gearfox TC srl headquarters without the after sales department agreement.
When the last month warranty has elapsed, the transmission is no longer covered by the warranty and you alone are responsible for all technical service costs as per the GearFox TC price list. The sole exception to this is the replacement of lubricant oil, even after the warranty has expired.
The warranty cannot be extended in any way pursuant to intervention.
While you have the rights to the services covered in the above terms of the warranty, withdrawal from the present contract and replacement of the transmission are expressly forbidden, as is the payment of direct or indirect damages.
Except for the warranty set out in this document, GearFox TC does not recognise any other warranty whether explicit, implicit or statutory, including those regarding marketability or suitable for a particular purpose. Any implicit, legally imposed warranty is limited to the duration of this warranty. In no case can GearFox TC srl be held responsible for any occasional, special or consequential damages, including loss of market or profits due to lack of use pursuant or related to the use or performance of the product, even if GearFox TC srl was notified of the onset of such damages.

GearFox Transmission Concepts SrL

Wanni Albertini, CEO

THIS IS THE SERVICE WARRANTY

John Lowe · 11-21-07, 06:29 PM

Wanni

Some really informative postings, great stuff. Also thanks for responding to my recent pm. Apart from the need to cope with around 650Nm the biggest problem we have with finding a box for the GT40 is the limited space behind the rear axle line. As I understand it the distance from the axle line centre to the rear cannot exceed 493mm. For example the Mendeola box appears to long based on the recently posted pics(I may be wrong on this).

So my central question is do you have a box which meets these requirements or do you plan one in the future?

As an aside I was at Xtrac today looking at their engineering and design facillity. Beautifuly engineered products with very skilled and dedicated employees. They spoke highly of your products by the way.

Best

John

Jac Mac · 11-21-07, 08:10 PM

[quote=FOX1;210496]NOT CORRECT, READ WHAT'S FOLLOWS

[center]

Warranty Conditions.

Improper use of the transmission will invalidate the warranty. Track use, Dyno testing and road simulation are all improper uses of the transmission. Tampering with seals on the transmission will invalidate the warranty [/color][/b]
Use of the transmission for any purpose other than that indicated herein invalidates the warranty. For example, but not limited to this, if the vehicle is used for competition or in a circuit or on a test bench or with components capable to increase the spinning torque.

NOT TRUE!!!
Really Wanni,

If I understand and read your warranty terms correctly I must notify you of the power output of my engine and never use the vehicle in - competition,on a race track, on a rolling road dyno,or as any form of test mule- in order to comply with your terms & conditions. That pretty much rules out any warranty for a replica and ever using the car for any competitve use. Since all are a work in progress and have so many variables in there construction. Not picking on you alone, I would bet good money that most manufacturers warranties have similar clauses in them.

Jac Mac

wanni · 11-21-07, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Lowe

Wanni

Some really informative postings, great stuff. Also thanks for responding to my recent pm. Apart from the need to cope with around 650Nm the biggest problem we have with finding a box for the GT40 is the limited space behind the rear axle line. As I understand it the distance from the axle line centre to the rear cannot exceed 493mm. For example the Mendeola box appears to long based on the recently posted pics(I may be wrong on this).

So my central question is do you have a box which meets these requirements or do you plan one in the future?

As an aside I was at Xtrac today looking at their engineering and design facillity. Beautifuly engineered products with very skilled and dedicated employe