Australia Stability Control?

This may be a silly question but under the new rules coming (in November I believe) all new cars must be fitted with electronic stability control, but does this apply to kit cars as well?

reading the ADR rules it doesnt really specify any exemptions that kit cars may slip under except for maybe 'special purpose vehicle'.

But it does lead to the next question, is there an ABS kit that we can get and does it have the ability to have stability control bolted on?
 
I have thought about this very topic. couldn't one just scavenge a system from something like a vette and if not than some car that was of similar weight and just have new lines ran? I know I have dumbed it down but is my theory correct?
 
I have been talking to an RTA inspector as I am going through compliancing at present and have been for a year.

He bought up stability control and crash testing.

My experiance thus far is they use Federal,state,ICV, modified vehicle rules and also personal opinion.
Basicly what ever it takes to F*** you up.

Stability control is individual to each vehicle due to the vehicle dynamics, you cant swap it over to another car and expect it to work.
Corner weight, yaw rate, polar moment of inertia, steering ratio, tyre size will all have an effect on the programing

It is the RTA 's way of saying yes we allow ICV's but.
They are a law unto themselves ,maybe the change of Government will help.

Jim
 
Gotcha and thanks but now for a few more questions if you do not mind. You stated "Corner weight, yaw rate, polar moment of inertia, steering ratio, tire size will all have an effect on the programing". Now why would steering ratio have anything to do with this. I know I had swapped out my old steering rack on my M for a motor sports version and that had NO effect on the system. Now if the car weighs the same or close to it why would the Polar moment of inertia be any different as all things considered in my example wouldn't that still remain relatively the same? Actually wouldn't a stiffer chassis actually be a benefit? Yaw rate I would assume would not be an issue for a street driven vehicle unless in an emergency situation ,where you would want it to kick in anyway. Tire size I do not buy into at all because I do not know of many people that keep the OEM tires rims. The first thing I did when I purchased my M was swap out those heavy corner weights for light weight rims that were not the same size as the OEM options (although the circumference of the tire was only slight larger than OEM). Again I know I am dumbing things down but for a STREET driven vehicle I just don't see why this wouldn't work. As far as a track vehicle goes just turn the darn thing off (ala BMW M SERIES, etc). Again I know that I have watered things down dramaticaly and I do not mean to call your expertses into question I just really want to learn about this stuff as I had planned to do just what I stated when I build my SL-C.
 
Gotcha and thanks but now for a few more questions if you do not mind. You stated "Corner weight, yaw rate, polar moment of inertia, steering ratio, tire size will all have an effect on the programing". Now why would steering ratio have anything to do with this. I know I had swapped out my old steering rack on my M for a motor sports version and that had NO effect on the system. Now if the car weighs the same or close to it why would the Polar moment of inertia be any different as all things considered in my example wouldn't that still remain relatively the same? Actually wouldn't a stiffer chassis actually be a benefit? Yaw rate I would assume would not be an issue for a street driven vehicle unless in an emergency situation ,where you would want it to kick in anyway. Tire size I do not buy into at all because I do not know of many people that keep the OEM tires rims. The first thing I did when I purchased my M was swap out those heavy corner weights for light weight rims that were not the same size as the OEM options (although the circumference of the tire was only slight larger than OEM). Again I know I am dumbing things down but for a STREET driven vehicle I just don't see why this wouldn't work. As far as a track vehicle goes just turn the darn thing off (ala BMW M SERIES, etc). Again I know that I have watered things down dramaticaly and I do not mean to call your expertses into question I just really want to learn about this stuff as I had planned to do just what I stated when I build my SL-C.

Steering ratio determines how fast the car will shift its weight, you replaced your rack with one fro the same manufacturer, I am wiling to bet that the response curve of that rack is already potted in the programming, so you wouldn't notice any changes, but the system sees it and it is within the "input window"

Tire size comes into play when you use ABS to control car movement, it also depends on the damper response, the actual (measured PMoI) will determine the response of the system (add power or brake) does the system have the ability to brake wheels independently or is that controlled via the diff.

Chassis rigidity will change a lot of variables, the suspension can/ will react differently sending a "data curve" that was not anticipated. This can cause the system to over correct.

There are so many variables that come into play, once you collect the required data you have to execute some type of corrective action.... Not as easy as you might think
 
I understand what you guys are saying but what about the racelogic system ( Racelogic - Experts in data logging, video logging & GPS ). Wouldn't everything that you have just posted be exactly what that system does. I know that it is only TC & LC as of now but works just as described. It works with the braking system and engine fuel system so I wouldn't (again with my limited knowledge which I realize amounts to nothing but theory) think that it wouldn't be to hard to apply to two extra wheels. It also now has a system that can be DIALED in by the driver in the cockpit as seen here CA: RACELOGIC TRACTION & LAUNCH CONTROL SYSTEMS Funny that they have this disclaimer NOTE: BMW DSC and other factory stability and traction systems must be switched OFF to use the Racelogic adjustable system.Racelogic is not designed to be a replacement for factory stability systems, it is purely a traction control system, to be used in situations and conditions where the factory systems are too intrusive or completely prohibitive. Yet when you read about what the system does it is exactly what the factory system does although this is much less intrusive. Got to love ATTY's.

Now I'm not saying that this is the answer but it seems pretty darn close.
 

Seymour Snerd

Lifetime Supporter
I understand what you guys are saying but what about the racelogic system ( Racelogic - Experts in data logging, video logging & GPS ). Wouldn't everything that you have just posted be exactly what that system does. .

No.

Traction control is a dramatically simpler problem than stability control. "All" traction control does is compare front wheel rate of rotation to rear wheel, and when the latter exceeds the former chops the throttle until that's no longer true. (roughly speaking; apologies to all who understand and/or who work on control systems)

Stability control answers the question "given vehicle speed, throttle position, steering position, brake pedal pressure, X, Y and Z accelerometer data, (etc.) exactly what do I have to do with each of the four brakes, throttle and steering ever millisecond to keep this guy out of the weeds?" Far more complex problem, and not at all a "closed loop" problem like traction control where there's really only one input variable (speed differential) and one output variable (degree of throttle).

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control and compare it to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_control.
 
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Thanks guys and sorry for being a pain in the A$$ but you really hit on something that has really gotten my interest. Again this place has tought me something. :thumbsup:
 
I would hope a little common sense prevails in situations like this as it could be more dangerous to implement ESC(Stability Control) and it would need to be tested and verified for each ICV(kit car) during the registration process.

Victoria have been the earliest adopters of ESC. I have attached a link to their anouncement below.

ESC mandatory from 1 January 2011 : VicRoads

Victoria also have an exemption in place for ICV's. So no ESC required for ICV's in Vic.

I expect all the other states will follow suit when ESC is a mandatory requirement. That is certainly what is being confirmed by engineers I have been in communication with.
 
going on from alan watkins, which was a great read by the way. TCS although it uses sensors for each wheel is mainly concerned with putting power onto the ground. So when looking at the racelogic system it has a 'slip' rate and doesnt involve the ABS it just cuts fuel to the engine.

ESC is more involved with stopping external forces from the sides, through measuring wheel speed, steering column rotation, brake pedal pressure, throttle pedal pressure, car speed, direction, yaw + pitch and then the ESC will take appropriate action by stopping throttle, applying brakes to any combination of wheels. but ESC requires having ABS installed... and even then its not an plug and play system.

to help clear things up imagine a top down diagram of a car, ABS will apply pressure to the front in stopping power, TCS will apply pressure from the back in acceleration and ESC will apply pressure from the sides in stopping spins and drifts.

However to get some form of resolution I also asked the nice people at bosch, and their response to a kit form or self installation was that it would be impossible and not very safe to transplant from another car to a kit either. ICV's especially as no two cars are the same...

So resigned to other forms of registration I was reading through the application for a 'Special and Enthusiast Vehicle', I'm sure kit cars arent in "full volume sales" but it would be an argument as for the 4 other factors (unusual design, appearance, performance, featured in specialist motoring magazine in 'as manufactured' condition).
 
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Dimi Terleckyj

Lifetime Supporter
If a car is listed as a full volume production car it has to undergo crash testing and as most kit cars are exempt from crash testing and are not classified as full volume production then at this stage we would be exempt from having to fit stability control.

As has been stated before to retrofit stability control from another donor vehicle to a kit car it would have no way of being tested and being able to perform correctly as the variations from the donor car would be outside the design parameters for that system and the car it is being fitted to.

Given that it is allowable to switch off the stability control if you so desire it is pointless in mandating a compulsory system such as this.

If the car is fitted with ESC and you switch it off then there is no point in having it in the first place.

Why make a system such as ESC compulsory and then provide the means to shut it down at will.

Dimi
 
Having looked at this somewhat with an eye on including ABS in my build, the modern (Bosch) DSC systems are integrated with ABS, the latest 5.7 system basically consists of four wheel speed sensors, a yaw/acceleration sensor (the 'combined' sensor), a steering angle sensor and the main unit which has the pump, solenoids and combines traction control, ABS, DSC and EBD.

This is the diagram for an RX-8 for example (chosen as its a mid-engined RWD car with a very low CoG).

CHU0402W009.png


The same systems are used on a vast number of cars, parts are common between many makes and models.

As far as I can tell, as long as you have the four wheel sensors the ABS should work (if not ideally). As should EBD. Traction control would have to have a compatible PCM (ECU) or some kind of CAN bus bridge (the HU/CM DSC module requests a power reduction over CAN).

DSC becomes rather tricky however, along with requiring the wheel sensors and the same CAN bus bridge (or compatible PCM), now assuming you fit the yaw/acceleration sensor in the right place it should know what the car is 'doing' in 3d space, what won't however match on a totally different car is steering angle which means that depending on geometry you could potentially get the computer interfering well before you are anywhere near loss of control, potentially fatal if (for example) it causes you to understeer or oversteer off the road.

After all that is said, I know that someone sells an aftermarket module for the RX-8 that allows you to tune the over/understeer of the DSC. I know that the RX-8 HU/CM needs to be configured for the car if replaced/swapped. I know that Audi's have settable parameters[1] (Same Bosch ABS/DSC unit as used in the RX-8) and it's meant to make a noticeable difference what brakes you 'code' it for. So with that in mind I went a googling and finally, I found this Bosch Motorsport - Software which is a piece of Bosch Software called RaceABS, it seems to allow you to set individual wheel circumference, trigger wheel count, weight, track, wheelbase etc etc.

Downside is it needs something called an MSA box which while "low cost" maybe in racing terms is still 720Eur! If you get that then you should be able to reprogram the ABS/DSC to your car.

Personally I bought a s/h HU/CM off ebay for £1 along with a steering column/wheel and sensor for another £1, I'm going to set it up with some hydraulic switches, rig up a way to fool the wheel speed sensors and see what it does. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't but I'm not spending 720Eur on a diagnostic connector!

D

[1] http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Audi_A4_(8E)_Brake_Electronics_(Bosch_5.7)
 
For what it's worth, there is an article in the latest Hot Rod (August 2011, page 96) on a guy who took a late-model vette electronic stability control system and transplanted it into a '69 Camaro. It can be done.

Eric
 
Hmm, I wonder if the Delphi ones are easier than Bosch?

I'd like to plug the OBD-2 into the RX-8 and see if I can get anything out of the HU/CM, AFAICS the PCM is CAN the Bosch HU/CM is K-line except the K-line/bus is not purely for it in the RX-8, the SAS[1] ECU also runs off it and I don't fancy playing with that.

D

[1] ie airbag control module.
 
Hi We dont need it in Vic Australia as
This ESC requirement does not apply to:
a motor vehicle that is not manufactured or marketed in full volume for normal road use
ICV are not Full volume
 
Just as a note, unless you can get into the ABS ECU to modify the car parameters the early Boxster S ABS computer may be rather better suited to the GT40, while its a wider track and heavier the wheelbase is the same and its going to be even more performance orientated.

Any know of any other modern sports cars with a 95in wheelbase (and ideally a 55in track)?
 
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