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Old 2nd October 2016, 03:50 PM   #21
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Yeah Doc,

The pictures I have seen of the welds look like something I would do!
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Old 3rd October 2016, 11:49 AM   #22
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Don't forget the balsa shift knob.
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Old 3rd October 2016, 02:32 PM   #23
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith1 View Post
Apologies for thread drift but quick question for Graham: Why did Porsche go with spaceframe for 917 over mono?
Well Keith,

there seem to be a lot of people called Graham chiming in, so I thought I,d better hold on a bit before answering.

Many of the answers given so far "border" on the right side, but are somewhat confused.

First, to answer your specific question, we have to go back in time. Porsche were always somewhat obsessed with weight, knowing that their torquey and lightweight air cooled engines could score impressively with lightweight body work. Cars previously, such as the birdcage Maserati, had shown that space frames could work, and with the advances in glass fibre manufacture, moulding and the huge success that Porsche were having in hill climbing and circuit racing the mid sixties proved to be pivotable in the ladder to space framing.
After all, the formula cars were space framed, so why could,nt a lightweight body and two seats work.

My view is that the designing and building of the pretty, but quick, 904, was the start of the run up to the final 917. The chassis was in steel and of a box girder construction and relied on the fibreglass body to give it strength and rigidity and it ability to carry larger and more powerful engines. So, with its success, the door was opened to the run of space framed cars, starting in the main with the Carrera 6, leading, as rapid developments and successes took place to the 908 (907s) 910s and finally the 917s in 1969.


Remember also that techniques in alloy welding in those days was not as we know it now, and the use of aircraft grade tubing, and 3 chassis constructed of magnesium, was going to look more like haemorrhoids than the beautiful flowing welds we see now. They did need that lightweight bodywork bonded to the chassis to give substance to the whole !!!!!!

Please do not think that the 917s ran off into the sunset trouble free. The whole programme of development and risk taken by Porsche and the main running team in the form of JWA, makes a remarkable story, one that would take too long to write here.

Hope this short reply helps you.
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Old 3rd October 2016, 03:39 PM   #24
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by 91740Gt View Post
Well Keith,

there seem to be a lot of people called Graham chiming in, so I thought I,d better hold on a bit before answering.

Many of the answers given so far "border" on the right side, but are somewhat confused.

First, to answer your specific question, we have to go back in time. Porsche were always somewhat obsessed with weight, knowing that their torquey and lightweight air cooled engines could score impressively with lightweight body work. Cars previously, such as the birdcage Maserati, had shown that space frames could work, and with the advances in glass fibre manufacture, moulding and the huge success that Porsche were having in hill climbing and circuit racing the mid sixties proved to be pivotable in the ladder to space framing.
After all, the formula cars were space framed, so why could,nt a lightweight body and two seats work.

My view is that the designing and building of the pretty, but quick, 904, was the start of the run up to the final 917. The chassis was in steel and of a box girder construction and relied on the fibreglass body to give it strength and rigidity and it ability to carry larger and more powerful engines. So, with its success, the door was opened to the run of space framed cars, starting in the main with the Carrera 6, leading, as rapid developments and successes took place to the 908 (907s) 910s and finally the 917s in 1969.


Remember also that techniques in alloy welding in those days was not as we know it now, and the use of aircraft grade tubing, and 3 chassis constructed of magnesium, was going to look more like haemorrhoids than the beautiful flowing welds we see now. They did need that lightweight bodywork bonded to the chassis to give substance to the whole !!!!!!

Please do not think that the 917s ran off into the sunset trouble free. The whole programme of development and risk taken by Porsche and the main running team in the form of JWA, makes a remarkable story, one that would take too long to write here.

Hope this short reply helps you.
Thanks to all the Grahams and especially Graham T!

I have the most excellent book "Racing in the Rain" but the mono/space frame question was not addressed as such...

Once again, sorry for thread drift, but to get back on course and to summarise:

You will not be getting FIA HTP anytime soon for a GT40 space frame replica!
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Old 3rd October 2016, 04:35 PM   #25
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Its my thread so drift away.....(no please I dont mean drift away from this thread....my 'show me your garage' post seemed to kill that thread back in May and after posting the Lucas Smoke on Jimmy's thread hope I havent killed that one to)

There are 3 cars which I had shortlisted to build for my 'mid life crisis', the 917, P330 and the gt40.

I wanted the car to be road legal which means an exact 917 replica (without the magnesium) couldn't be done as the drivers legs were ahead of the front axle line.

I very nearly bought a Columbo V12 engine and a foreman 330 kit but was concerned that as a 'replica' if driven in Italy could be destroyed, so dont drive in Italy no big deal but during this research phase someone approached me with a chance to obtain a DB chassis and the rest is..............yet to be built!!!!!!!

I would also like to hear from the others who purchased a chassis from the late Ray Webber (I have a list of buyers) and it would be nice to see progress of the other cars excepting that Jimmymac & Alistair's cars are just about finished and have been documented in excellent detail here.

While drifting into the 917 again I have a question for Graham....

Whats it like in a 917 going through Eau Rouge at full chat??? its something I will very probably never experience myself.

To finish a shot of my favorite car engine of all time....
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Old 3rd October 2016, 05:11 PM   #26
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

A couple of questions Doc,
Why the need for the HTP if you dont intend to race the car yourself, since according to the data posted on this thread it looks like it will be reviewed at either 5 or 10 year intervals anyway, is it the anticipated value increase?. To me it seems like double edged sword since it limits any changes you might wish to make in the future and the ongoing costs of maintaining the HTP might outweigh any benefits.
Having been involved in some classic racing class stuff here in NZ I often think that if enough car owners got together they could get track owners/clubs to put on races for cars like these without the added baggage of the HTP and allow both cars such as yours and replicas of the same to race with some very basic rules such as crossply race tires and original type engines- eg any SBF with carbs in your case.
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Old 3rd October 2016, 06:08 PM   #27
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

As Graham T already pointed out, the 917 was very much an evolution of the 908, another tube framed car. The cars actually ran concurrently, especially early on, as the 917 was thought ill-suited to shorter, tighter tracks.

Kudos have to be given to Porsche for pushing the racing envelope, both in design and in materials. They weren't always the first to do something, but they were frequently the first constructor of any size to do something (active aero, chassis tubes used to carry fluids, turbocharging, fiberglass bodies bonded to chassis for structural strength, various metal alloys bonded to iron cylinder liners, ultrasonic welding of heads to cylinders, central power takeoff to control crankshaft harmonics, and general Teutonic badassness when it comes to running a race shop). Okay, I threw that last one if for effect.

Anyway, the 917 has always been my favorite racecar, and had I been convinced that I could have registered one for road use in Kalifornia, I would have bought one instead of the GT40. That said, the GT is WAY more practical as a daily driver. And, its nice to know that should I run into something, my feet won't be acting as a "crush zone."
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Old 3rd October 2016, 06:10 PM   #28
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

I'm actually moving towards the no HTP jac, getting it road legal is the goal.... but I do like to get period parts where I can. As for value all I know is what I have spent, I think I have gained some monetary value if all totaled up, the question is how much is it worth now.... how much on the road and how much with a HTP?

if I list the parts I have would anybody like to play 'how much is it worth now?'
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Old 3rd October 2016, 06:49 PM   #29
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

[QUOTE=Doc Watson;499061



While drifting into the 917 again I have a question for Graham....

Whats it like in a 917 going through Eau Rouge at full chat??? its something I will very probably never experience myself.
[/QUOTE]

Well Doc,

This is the truth. Thrilling, exciting, awesome ................ but initially for my 1st lap there with the 917 way back in 2005, somewhat concerning.
In the 917 the seating position is in a lying down position, very forward in the car, with as you said, ones feet ahead of the front axle line. Very comfortable, but despite what appears to be a large area windscreen from the outside, when looking out, the viewing is a little more restricted. Going into the dip and then the right curving bend is fantastic, vision perfect, but as you start the climb and the track begins its roll out, i lose ALL site of the track for a second or so until you near the top. From that 1st lap, onwards I knew what to expect, but in traffic you just have to drive with "confident caution" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a phenominal feeling going into it flat out, but then at that speed you are trying to keep it on the track as it is trying to throw you off to the left as I,m sure you must have seen many times in YouTube footage, etc, etc. It does catch a lot of people out, especially in damp conditions, and believe me Spa enjoys four seasons in one day on a very regular basis.

Spa is quite simply wonderful and until you stand at the bottom of Eau Rouge you cannot really comprehend what a steep climb it is.

The picture I,ve attached shows some of the assembly area and a few of the 82 cars waiting to go out for official practice, and you can see part of that famous bend climbing up in the distance.

A definite "to do" for anyone as a trackday or race meeting. When you eventually finish your 40 and have it sorted, it is a track you must "taste" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 3rd October 2016, 07:01 PM   #30
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Watson View Post
I'm actually moving towards the no HTP jac, getting it road legal is the goal.... but I do like to get period parts where I can. As for value all I know is what I have spent, I think I have gained some monetary value if all totaled up, the question is how much is it worth now.... how much on the road and how much with a HTP?

if I list the parts I have would anybody like to play 'how much is it worth now?'
To me that would be a logical move, your only immediate stumbling block appears to be the Mex block and that might disappear in years to come as attrition cleans out the hoarders. By then Dart etc might get around to being a New Old Stock supplier.

A how much was it worth 'then' vs 'now' might be a more sobering thread!!
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Old 3rd October 2016, 07:08 PM   #31
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Quote:
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To finish a shot of my favorite car engine of all time....
To think that back in 2003 I was offered two of those engines. The first was just the engine, and needing lots of work @ 250,000. The second with a gearbox, also needing work at 300,000.

Needless to say I did not have enough change in my back pocket to purchase at the time. Had I have had the balls to sell my house and taken the gamble, I would be sitting on nearer to 2 million now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hindsight ......................... a wonderful thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and maybe FIA papers for the 917K.
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Old 4th October 2016, 06:04 PM   #32
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Do you think the inspectors would overlook my 917's V8 and titanium chassis parts?

Other than that it's straight up legit, honest
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Old 5th October 2016, 03:44 PM   #33
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Wink Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Quote:
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Do you think the inspectors would overlook my 917's V8 and titanium chassis parts?

Other than that it's straight up legit, honest
You only really need the HTP if your going to actually race!
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