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Old 21st May 2015, 05:03 PM   #1
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FIA HTP for a gt40.....

I am hoping to get a historic technical passport (HTP) for my car and so have been in contact with one of the registrars as I need to know about various parts that need to be ordered now.

The car will be classed in group F. UK registration process can be found in reference 1 and the FIA regulations in reference 2 below. I have read both (I don't get out much)

Looks like I need to do the following...

Original final drive system, yokes and doughnuts..i.e. no cv and shaft.

A period correct engine block, either a XE (very rare and expensive) or a hi po 289 pre 1966. At the moment I have a Mexican 302 which was going to be built with 289 internals, more on that later. Appendix K also requires original rockers for the valves and period correct cast iron heads (289 hipo)

I already have the correct disc, brakes and suspension arms, but the uprights are aluminium (I consider this a safety issue as I will not put magnesium on the car).

The rules seem to have been tightened since I last discussed the car with a registrar a few years ago. Has anybody else seen this regarding HTP's or am I the only soul sailing this path? I was previously told that 'as long as the engine looks correct from the outside' that it would be OK, hence the 1972 302 block, looks like I now need a new block now. The HTP is valid for 5 years from registration and I have heard that some manufactureres cars had HTP's, from the conversation I had today the registrar was asking a lot of questions about the chassis, its origin, etc... has anybody re registered their cars and found problems? is the process different in other countries? Jimmey Mac are you still out there?


references

1. Motor Sport Association UK, FIA HISTORIC TECHNICAL PASSPORTS (HTPs)
https://www.msauk.org/assets/fiahtpguidelines.pdf

2. FIA Appendix K
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/fil...0141218%29.pdf
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Old 22nd May 2015, 01:00 AM   #2
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Hello
All you are living with your registrar contact is happening there in France !!!!
Since one year or more I am giving an help to a friend in doing all forms for his Lotus 23 and at the end all details you are stating where happenning and after one year of corrections on forms and hundred of details amended there are still questions pending ( magnesium upright , chassis origin etc)!!!!
And what it is strange is that car was a very early recreation" made in the 80's !!So it's now like an historical build !!!!!)
I really cannot understand how some actual manufacturers are able to advertise their"continuations"?????
I cannot understand too how some very milionaire collector and gentlemen drivers can race with the duplicate of their car instade of the original chassis ?
How they did the HTP forms ????? Registrar would absolutly know that it's acopy as the real car is sometime very famous !!!( I know already one or two samples of this case hapenning... )

Good luck with your's
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Old 22nd May 2015, 02:02 AM   #3
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Doc
I was talking to a Superformance dealer earlier this year.
For a car on the road 80k Mark
For one with HTP 250k Mark

This puts it in the same bracket as a Gelscoe with HTP

Continuation for base model I would think is stretching it a bit, but no doubt they can be made to work!

Ian
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Old 22nd May 2015, 05:16 PM   #4
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

I have a friend with a real original GT40 and he would have to have these docuements and renew them every five years. It a nice money making exercise for the FIA!
Regards Allan
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Old 25th May 2015, 01:54 PM   #5
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Andrew,

If you want to contact me, i may be able to help a little.

Andrew.
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Old 28th May 2015, 07:19 AM   #6
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Doc,
I`m working with mk1 HTP at the moment.
Seems to me too FIA really have tighten the rules.
Driveshafts; You are right, doughnuts.
Wasn`t the uprights first aluminium, later magnesium? However, no magnesium is the way here too, if possible.
I got one 65 hi po 289 block, but didn`t check it carefully yet if it is useable or not.

Generally, it`s very hard to find out officials who can tell the requirements and this moments standards.
I have been in contact with "GT40 FIA-inspectors" of UK (1) and France (1), but not very satisfied with the results yet.
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Old 28th May 2015, 01:33 PM   #7
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjs View Post
Doc,


Generally, it`s very hard to find out officials who can tell the requirements and this moments standards.
I have been in contact with "GT40 FIA-inspectors" of UK (1) and France (1), but not very satisfied with the results yet.
OfFicials are not usefull in the case of GT 40 ( specially in France !!!!) ; you just have to ask at Genevra FIA offices all the early official forms of homologation ( Ford did those in the sixties as rules where asking for that) and you need to follow strickly all specifications and brand of parts named on those forms .
If you want to fit something different you need to proove that Ford have done such mods and you need to write aspecial form for every modification you want to apply not being sure that the comittee will accept those !!!!!
Long long trip to go !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 28th May 2015, 02:18 PM   #8
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Wouldn't it pay you to apply for HTP based on the very last GT40 spec homologated which would be around 1970? I presume Ford had to re-apply for papers each time they made a change and this would give you a wider range of parts and specifications to choose from.

Just a thought - (probably wrong!)
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Old 28th May 2015, 03:57 PM   #9
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

A case in point.
I work with several teams running cars.
It's not as straight forward as it seems.
No one runs Fispa fuel regulators nor the original
ignition systems anymore. Add to that the voltage
regulator.
If i may suggest from experience, strike up a
relationship with an Inspector. First get him to pass
your chassis, then submit a detailed specification sheet
to him and ask for his comments.
Them quietly ask him to confirm his agreement in writing.
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Old 28th May 2015, 03:58 PM   #10
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

My reasons for a pre 66 is the class of racing you register the car for (group F).

If you enter group G cars up to 1971 will be racing against you.

Has anybody here got a HTP for a gt40?

Andy
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Old 28th May 2015, 04:18 PM   #11
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Ah, yes I see the logic....
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Old 29th May 2015, 12:50 PM   #12
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Farley View Post
If i may suggest from experience, strike up a
relationship with an Inspector. First get him to pass
your chassis, then submit a detailed specification sheet
to him and ask for his comments.
Them quietly ask him to confirm his agreement in writing.
And evidently this have to be set during avery very nice "diner"!!!!!!!! LOL
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Old 4th June 2015, 11:05 AM   #13
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Keith in 1970 Ford had no official GT40's they were obsolete it was private teams that were running them. The Homologated GT40 was in 1965 but overstamped April 1966 for a run of 50. Which was not completed at the time April 1966. Ford official pulled out of endurance racing in 1967. And maybe they unofficial helped supplying the Gulf cars with new parts i.e Gurney Weslake heads. But by the time of P/1075 success the GT40 was thought of as reliable but slow and heavy. The Gulf GT40 was only run because of the rule changes that ban the big block Fords MKIV's and Chaparrals 2F's and allowed the small block cars to enter like the GT40. Ford would have entered the 1968 season probabley with an improved MKIV /V if the ban on engine sizes did not occur!
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Old 1st October 2016, 11:14 AM   #14
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Watson View Post
My reasons for a pre 66 is the class of racing you register the car for (group F).

If you enter group G cars up to 1971 will be racing against you.

Has anybody here got a HTP for a gt40?

Andy
Hi everybody,
I am new to the Forum, and, as every new member I guess, very unexperienced, and equally over-excited.
I have been racing an original factory de Tomaso Pantera GR4 for years in classic racing, but life circumstances are forcing me to reluctantly sell one of my race cars, ( I also have a McLaren M6B for sale) But I'd rather not sell my Pantera that I love and cherish like an old mistress.
Anyhow, thinking ahead of time, I am considering the purchase of a Ford GT40 replica to continue racing, and I went to inspect a nice KVA yesterday.
Of course, intending to race with a replica ( like many guys do with Pantera GR4's ) you must first obtain an HTP from FIA.
I read the present topic with great attention, and after reading, it seems a lot more difficult to obtain a GT40 replica HTP than one for a Pantera GR4 replica.
Hence my questions after seeing no less than 11 GT40's at the start of the recent Spa 6 Hours three weeks ago ( I doubt all of them were genuine original cars... ):
Has anyone on the forum obtained an FIA HTP for a replica? What was the replica's manufacturer ? What were the mods to be applied to the replica in order to be FIA approved? What was the budget ?
Many thanks to all ! See you next year :>))
Patrick
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Old 1st October 2016, 03:31 PM   #15
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Patrick,

I don't think an HTP is possible with anything but an original type monocoque i.e. Gelscoe, Superformance, David Brown, etc. The FIA is not going to issue an HTP on a replica space frame chassis or an aluminum mono that is not "original" style (i.e. an RCR alloy tub)

And yes depending on what era you want to race in you will be running solid discs, Girling calipers, rubber doughnuts, etc.

Now in the US the situation is different as SVRA has accepted deviations to help fill grids.

We have just come to terms with SVRA to allow our Superformance 289 Cobras to race with a fiberglass body although it requires a kit we have developed that provides solid discs and Girling calipers, etc. so that the chassis is "era appropriate" in any of our MK II configurations, slabside, FIA or USRRC models.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 05:43 AM   #16
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Patrick,

as MK 1V has just said, there is NO way that you will obtain FIA papers for anything other than an original type chassis and ALL the appropriate up/down grades and modifications.

With a KVA chassis and appropriate racing necessities you would only be eligible for invitation races such as the 1 hour support races at the Summer Classic or the 6 Hour meetings organised by Barry Siddery Smith, or here in the UK, the SR&GT/Bernies V8 series and other invitation races.

The UK Heritage and Intermarque series would not accept my GT40, but only the 917 as it had the correct style chassis.

You may have some organisers over there in mainland Europe with the odd invitation race but over the many years I have been racing choice has been VERY, VERY limited.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 08:11 AM   #17
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Apologies for thread drift but quick question for Graham: Why did Porsche go with spaceframe for 917 over mono?
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Old 2nd October 2016, 12:00 PM   #18
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Funny enough, my pre-66 289 ci is for sale on the parts for sale section. It's got all the correct bits you'll need, like 1965 block, 1965 iron hipo heads etc. I'm a "stickler" for originality and it's period original, but with mostly new internals, so won't go "BAnG" in a hurry. The only reason for sale, is to liquidate some cash for the enormous tax bill I'll facing when P/1042 comes home. I have also heard over the grapevine, that the HEP inspectors want to see a complete car and not one in stages of completion, so good luck. Andrew
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Old 2nd October 2016, 02:16 PM   #19
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith1 View Post
Apologies for thread drift but quick question for Graham: Why did Porsche go with spaceframe for 917 over mono?
My understanding was cost, timing and reparability. Remember the photo from Porsche of 25 917s lined up numbered to 25 for the homologation inspection? I have seen comments that all 25 were not complete and that some shell games were played with switching out numbered body panels to fool the inspectors.

As Porsche did not have experience with mono construction save for the unitized street cars, it was quicker and cheaper to go tubular. And the 917 chassis had holes in the tubes wherever another tube butted to it. The frame was equipped with a pressure gauge and a Schrader valve so the tubework could be pressurized and a "leak down" test done to identify cracks or failed welds!
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Old 2nd October 2016, 03:41 PM   #20
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Re: FIA HTP for a gt40.....

I heard that the drivers were told to immediately pull over if the pressure gauge went to zero. I also heard that some F1 drivers tested the 917 and got out white faced never to be seen in that car again, could be an urban myth but is it defiantly thread drift!!!!

I managed to collect assembly photos of the last original some years ago. The chassis is magnesium and the welds look like chewing gum!!!!!

Porsche were obsessed with weight on this car, the floor was a 'new' honeycomb construction, socket head screws had 50% of the heads removed. Did they put Steve McQueen on a diet before filming Le Mans???
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