Casting numbers / SVA

[Lee]

Chris

From the question about casting numbers on the Brodix thread

For SVA the thing about block numbers is because the emissions is dependent on

'the date of manufacture of the vehicle, except for an "Amateur Built" vehicle, a vehicle "Manufactured using parts of a registered vehicle" or a "Rebuilt vehicle" it shall be 1 January immediately preceding the date of manufacture of the vehicle's engine, if this is earlier'(from SVA manual)

So if you can prove the engine is pre'75 the only emission test you have to pass is the one for 'excessive smoke'.

If you can prove the engine was manufactured between '75 and pre '95 you don't need the Catalyst test.

'Evidence of date of manufacture could be for example
a copy of the donor vehicle Registration document
a letter from the manufacturer confirming date of manufacture or production period'(from SVA manual)

I understand the books with casting numbers is now used by many owners with US V8s at SVA time to prove age of engine.

The other main way to prove age (as mentioned above) is by reference to the 'donors' registration document for the 'engine number'. UK registration documents have this but I am not sure if US registration documents have this and if they are valid. The SVA manual refers to 'Registration document'. It makes no reference to it being from the UK.

Can anyone from US confirm if engines have an 'engine number' which is vehicle unique, like a chassis number, on a plate attached to the engine, or stamped on the engine. If so, then I guess that tag, together with a copy of the US registration document SHOULD suffice.

I would also be particularly interested in the answer to this latter part.

[Chris Hale]

Thanks for answering that Lee, the engines numbers are as follow's VU 3052BB & 195426724 the engine is a Ford 302 is there any where that the engine numbers are listed with the date of manufacture?

Chris.

[Bart Carter]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for answering that Lee, the engines numbers are as follow's VU 3052BB & 195426724 the engine is a Ford 302 is there any where that the engine numbers are listed with the date of manufacture?

Chris.

[/ QUOTE ]

A 1970's 302 Ford would have a casting number beginning with the letter "D". It would be followed by a number which represents the year in that decade. For instance a casting number that reads "D4DE-AA" would be a 1974 block. The D would be 1970's and the 4 would be 1974.

The numbers you gave are not the casting number. Look above the starter on the right hand side of the block.

[Brett James-McCall]

Also look on the other side opposite, they stamped a 4 digit code for date of actual manufacture.

Brett

[Canuk40]

Hi Lee,

Maybe this will work. Although brand new Ford small blocks are made today, the engines can be sorted into two catagories by the crankshaft imbalance. If your engine requires a 28oz counterbalanced flywheel, it's a '82 or older engine. If it reqires a 50oz. counterbalanced flywheel it's newer than '82.

This method of dating the engine speaks to the design not the vintage of the parts.

If you service replaced a cracked or warped block made in 1981 with a new production dimensionally identical block, would that engine now be considered a brand new engine?

The basic argument comes down to stating with some auhority that small block Fords with 28oz. cranks are 1982 or older, by original design and manufacture. What do you think?

[Brett James-McCall]

Ian,
From my current understanding, SVA take the block as the engine. One of the the issues is that despite the 302 being a 1960s design the authorities that be class a block cast in 1991 as a 91 engine. That is why a lot of people putting US V8s in the cars here in the UK try to get pre-75 blocks. Lee, is that your understanding?

Brett

[Steve Toner]

Ford engine blocks have a casting code and date code, as well as an assembly date. They also had engine ID tags, but these were removable so probably not considered legitimate proof of an engine's pedigree.

A 302 should have one of the following casting codes (from George Reid's High Performance Ford Engine Parts Interchange ) - this may not be a complete list:

[*]C8OE (1968-69)[*]C9TE (1969)[*]D1OE (1970-74)[*]D1TE (1971-74)[*]D4DE (1974)[*]D5ZY (1975-81)[*]75ZY ("Mexican block")[/list]As noted (on the small blocks at least), the casting code is found where the starter bolts up to the bell housing, and it'll also include the part number (6015) and a revision level. So you'll see something like C8OE-6015A.

Directly above (or below if you stand on your head) the casting code is the date code - the date the block was cast. This follows a different Ford standard, and will have the last digit of the year followed by a letter indicating the month followed by one or 2 digits indicating the day. The letter "I" is not used, so a date code of 5J7 would mean September 7, 1975 (the 1975 is implied from the casting code, whcih in this example would probably be D4AE)...

The engine assembly date is often machined off if the block has been decked. But if it's there it can be found stamped on the top front of the block by the distributor - actually, that's a bad description. It's on the deck on the little "ear" just forward of cylinder #5. It follows the same format as the date code above.

Now, there seem to be some blocks (perhaps service replacement blocks and/or SVO blocks) that have completely different casting codes from those shown above, and you may have a harder time dating those...

[Canuk40]

Hi Bret,

As each country has unique requirements for registration, this makes it quite a challenge for manufacturers or home builders to meet compliance with regulations.

Although I not a tree hugger, I understand the importance of not taking emmission control equippment off perfectly good engines to suite someones idea of pulling a few more horsepower out of a mill. Brand new engines with full EEC are more difficult to deal with than the old lumps we deal with.

This is why the government should look at a newly constructed reproduction of a previously manufactured automobile, be it a GT40 or a '32 Ford hot rod, in the light of what it actually is. If the engine is period correct - let it go, what's the difference if you built it in your garage or JWA built it in 1968?

However, (the greenpeace guys will like this) if you decide to put a brand spanking new 32 valve, supercharged 5.4 Ford V8 in the car - then it should meet the emmissions standards for the vehicle the engine was meant for. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

At least this way, we all still get a slice! My 2c worth

[Lee]

Brett
I agree with your understanding.

Quote from

British American Engines FAQ

Q: If your engines are new, why do they have pre 1993 blocks?
A: This is a requirement of our kit car customers, due to the emissions requirements of the SVA test. Any engine which has a block date of post 1993, must have a catalytic converter. In addition, a lower rate of import tax will apply & this saving is passed on to the customer. Not sure how to achieve the lower rate of import tax. Anyone care to elaborate for imports into UK. (different for imports into US)

Steve
you said 'They also had engine ID tags, but these were removable so probably not considered legitimate proof of an engine's pedigree.'

I agree BUT the SVA manual quotes -

'Evidence of date of manufacture could be for example
****a copy of the donor vehicle Registration document
****a letter from the manufacturer confirming date of manufacture or production period'

In the event of a missing casting code, one of those removeable engine tags, together with a copy of the registration document, showing the date of registration as pre'75, and showing that same tag number would suit me down to the ground, and according to the wording of the SVA manual, would suffice, unless anyone knows different?

I would rather follow the written procedure in the manual, rather than rely on using a casting number. Anyone care to sell me an engine with such a tag and copy registration document. Doesn't matter on the condition of engine because I will be rebuilding it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Lee]

Some extra background, particularly to help non-UK members understand the reasoning.

In general UK uses age related number plates, and also there is stigma attached if the registration document says things about original year of manufacture not being known etc.

Since 1984 the format for registration numbers has been letter (denoting age) following by up to 3 numbers followed by 3 letters. 1984/5 was A, up to 2000 was Y (Z not used). During the early years of this format it was one letter for 12 months from August to July, then it changed to 6 months from either March or September. Y was March to August 2000. Then the format changed to 2 letters followed by 2 numbers (the date) followed by 3 letters. The date format is currently 0 for March onwards or 5 for September onwards followed by the last digit of the year, so May 2003 would be 03 and December 2007 will be 57. From 2010 the first digit will be 1 for March, 6 for September. The '01' age was not used - it will be used by DVLA later to generate revenue by selling off for private plates.

If the DVLA (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority) are not happy you end up with a 'Q' plate which is of the older style looking something like Q390 JKP (my old car).

When registering a car for the first time, there is a series of hoops to jump through. For GT40 replicas this invariably means SVA test. There is then the the option of either a new registration or a Q plate. There is the provision in the 'new' category for 1(one) component (vague description) to not be 'new', but to be 'as new' (ie reconditioned). The engine thus becomes 'the' component which is not new, and if it is pre '75, voila no catalysts or emissions worries, (or if it is pre'95 (or'93?) no catalyst worries) and a registration as a brand new car with no MOT tests for the first 3 years, and an entry on the registration document of 'registered as new'

[Brian Magee]

Lee
What you omitted to mention is that to qualify for a 'new' registration,that is to prove that all parts apart from the allowed one re-comditioned part are new, you need a 'Certificate of Newness' from the kit or chassis manufacturer. This becomes difficult when the manufacturer has ceased trading.

Brian.

[Brett James-McCall]

Brian,
What would be your best recommendation around this? As I will encounter this problem (one day).

Brett

[Lee]

Brett
It appears there is an option to replace the 'Certificate of Newness' from the kit or chassis manufacturer, with form V267 which you can fill in yourself.

Form V267

Totalkitcar.com have a series of articles all about it.

Totalkitcar.com article