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Old 4th June 2017, 02:34 AM   #21
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Re: P1109, horror!!

Cop it on the chin and fix it.

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Old 4th June 2017, 05:39 AM   #22
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Re: P1109, horror!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolodymyr View Post
Very sad, and I agree with Ryan the car looked very nice, hopefully it will be repaired to the same standard.
With regard to the Ship of Thesus thing, I firmly fall in the doesn't matter camp. Since all of our cells are replaced since we first joined the forum, should we be made to re-register on the basis that we are not the same person as joined in the first place?? Nonetheless it is a moot point, and the debate will continue, forever, without any possible resolution, which is probably why I think it doesn't matter.
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Not yours Dave, everyone knows Scottish cells can only be destroyed in a thermo-nuclear explosion. That's why the Fishwife is still in office...

But you're quite right - it doesn't matter
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Old 4th June 2017, 07:04 AM   #23
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Re: P1109, horror!!

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Originally Posted by MHNCO View Post
How many parts must be retained for this to be any different than my Superformance when it's all said and done? Those VIN plates must be worth a lot of money
Why is it illegal to do a "vin plate" re-body on a vintage Mustang, and call it "original"? When this seems to be accepted practice with a GT40? Or is this just an international thing?

There was a 66 GT350 I saw for sale a few years back, the car had been in a bad wreck in the early 70s (IIRC),, and the owner had used a "cheap" doner fastback unibody, and transferred every nut, bolt and original Shelby bolt on to the "repaired" car. I think it might have only been one of the inner fender apron VIN stamps that gave it away and gave the car the "clone", or "rebody" stigma.

I am not really for, or against. ...Just wondering why the apparent double standard?
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Old 4th June 2017, 01:30 PM   #24
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Re: P1109, horror!!

If someone spilled coffee on the Mona Lisa...........ya I know that can't happen but bear with me, would we say it should be cleaned up and restored or written off because somebody other than Leonardo da Vinci touched it up with 21th century paint?

Better yet if Mona was yours would you throw it away and write off Millions?

Better that it get "fixed" and remain one of a few more than 100 original cars for everyone else can enjoy at track events, car shows and on display than declared "no longer an original car and not be restored because of the loss of value.

The one thing I would object to would be to build multiple cars up from what's left and try to reap profit from the fraud.

Mark, there are millions of Mustangs but just a 130 or so GT40s. I know of no real GT40 that has been stolen and sold with a fake VIN number.
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Old 4th June 2017, 04:16 PM   #25
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Re: P1109, horror!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark R View Post
Why is it illegal to do a "vin plate" re-body on a vintage Mustang, and call it "original"? When this seems to be accepted practice with a GT40? Or is this just an international thing?

There was a 66 GT350 I saw for sale a few years back, the car had been in a bad wreck in the early 70s (IIRC),, and the owner had used a "cheap" doner fastback unibody, and transferred every nut, bolt and original Shelby bolt on to the "repaired" car. I think it might have only been one of the inner fender apron VIN stamps that gave it away and gave the car the "clone", or "rebody" stigma.

I am not really for, or against. ...Just wondering why the apparent double standard?
Because the Mustang is worth "XX" and the GT40 is valued at "XXXXXXXXXX"!!!

There are Ferraris that have never been to Maranello and I suspect "GT40s" that have never seen the inside of FAV!
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Old 7th June 2017, 03:26 PM   #26
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Re: P1109, horror!!

Howard and Rick.. your points are well taken. And I am glad for any of these cars that can be saved. I would however be surprised if the legality of a "re-body" has anything to do with a cars value. And I think it even differs from state to state here in the US. Now that Dynacorn has been selling complete unibodies for vintage mustangs, I have seen people selling a title and VIN tags.. And trying to "re-create" a car from a Vin-tag is assumed to be unethical in the pedestrian world of the mustang..
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Old 7th June 2017, 04:53 PM   #27
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Re: P1109, horror!!

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And trying to "re-create" a car from a Vin-tag is assumed to be unethical in the pedestrian world of the mustang..
And illegal from a Federal regulation point of view! It is a potential felony to remove a VIN from a vehicle. Ask a former Cobra restorer who was arrested for removing the CSX VIN tag form a car during the restoration. Intent may be good but the law does not recognize the intent, only the action.

DYNACORN attempts to cover themselves with verbiage that says "don't do this" and to register the car as a new custom build but in the real world you know what is going on.............
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Old 7th June 2017, 05:01 PM   #28
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Re: P1109, horror!!

Rick, didn't the now deceased (RIP) Boyd Coddington get caught out by all this VIN shenanigans?
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Old 7th June 2017, 08:20 PM   #29
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Re: P1109, horror!!

Boyd's FUBAr was titles from old junk cars used on new mega dollar scratch builds.
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Old 8th June 2017, 10:27 AM   #30
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Re: P1109, horror!!

Isn't that what replica builders do?
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Old 8th June 2017, 06:40 PM   #31
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Re: P1109, horror!!

I was under the impression that in UK and colonies it used to be common to buy old MK1-2 & 4 Ford cars to obtain period rego etc, had Cortinas, Zephyrs etc to choose from. Does not work in NZ anymore due to staged inspection system.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 09:42 PM   #32
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Re: P1109, horror!!

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Originally Posted by fsts2k View Post
Maybe your question should be how much do you replace on your car before it is not a Superformance anymore???

only kidding!
If you replace the handle on a broom is it still the same broom if NO then the handle is in fact the broom, which means you can change the head and it still remains the same broom. because it was the same broom up and till you changed the handle
If the answer is YES when you changed the handle and the broom is the same it would then appear at a later date you then changed the head and the broom would inherit the the distinction or being the same broom, despite having changed the handle and the head so it seems logically as you change thing on a car they become part of that car if on the other hand you say if you change the handle or the head it is no longer the original. So on a car it would mean just changing the wheels on a car invalidates it originality
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Old 4th December 2017, 04:24 AM   #33
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Re: P1109, horror!!

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Originally Posted by Mark R View Post
Howard and Rick.. your points are well taken. And I am glad for any of these cars that can be saved. I would however be surprised if the legality of a "re-body" has anything to do with a cars value. And I think it even differs from state to state here in the US. Now that Dynacorn has been selling complete unibodies for vintage mustangs, I have seen people selling a title and VIN tags.. And trying to "re-create" a car from a Vin-tag is assumed to be unethical in the pedestrian world of the mustang..


The part that disappoints me is that the same repair panels you can legally buy from Dynacorn and replace one at a time are not allowed to be pre-assembled and "installed" (for lack of a better term) as a unit to restore a chassis back to an arguably better standard than that which you'd be pulling off the road.

I get the whole register it as a replica thing and I understand VIN swapping clouds the legitimacy of the vehicle, but I see it as a bit of a double standard that the exact same panels are allowed to be replaced one at a time and yet not as a group.
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Old 4th December 2017, 03:18 PM   #34
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Re: P1109, horror!!

Clearly the market values an original car, with original provenance. I don't think anyone disputes that.....all that's needed to know that is to pay five seconds of attention to what happens at high end auctions for all original cars.

That doesn't mean a car that's been cobbled together from original, and new parts isn't highly valuable.....it's just not as valuable as an all original car, in the vast majority of instances.

But back to what the OP brought up here in this thread, my $.02 is that it's unfortunate the value of original GT40s (that is, a GT40 built before say 1970....) have risen to the point that racing these cars in vintage racing becomes pretty sketchy....so the attendance numbers are down. It's no different however for a Ferrari 512S or a 250GT or an original Shelby Cobra. That's the very essence of vintage racing at the high end. If it's an issue then folks can still go race a 356, a '69 911, an alfa gtv or even a Hillman Imp. It's just a matter of choice and cost.

I know a guy in the Northwest here who has an original 512S. He doesn't run it in vintage racing because the value of the car represents more than 1/2 of his total net worth, and his insurance wouldn't cover an on-track accident. I suggested he get an SPF GT40 but last time I chatted with him the SPF cars still aren't allowed in the SOVREN vintage racing here. Maybe they are now, which makes it a pretty appealing option!

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Old 5th December 2017, 07:20 AM   #35
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Re: P1109, horror!!

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...illegal from a Federal regulation point of view! It is a potential felony to remove a VIN from a vehicle.

Hmmmmmm.

There's a certain 'classic car' dealership here in the States that appears to have an RO51 A990 in its inventory the body of which was, according to the sales pitch blurb on the dealer's site, completely "replaced" during its resto because it was in such bad shape...but it still supposedly has its original A990 vin tag. There appears to be another 'discrepancy" on its trim tag wherein the 'TAG appears to show the car was an automatic from the factory whereas it's now a 4-speed car and is touted (on its authenticity/appraisal sheet) as being one of six 4-speed cars (of that particular make) made in '65.

I called about the car trying to find out what-was-what and 'was told they don't have, and never did have an RO51 A990 in their inventory and not to "believe everything (I) see on the internet"...and yet as I type this the car is STILL featured in a photo spread on their website. So I don't know exactly what the deal is...and therefore 'am making no accusations whatsoever.

Its advertised price has been lowered from $120K to $90K, too (rounded figures)...either of which would seem to me to be low for a 'genny'.

I'd STILL like to have the car regardless...but, for obvious reasons, I'd first need to know PRECISELY where I might stand in the 'legalities' department both currently and 'down the road' regarding the VIN #/trim tag/title situation...but, I've been told they don't have any such car...so...

'Apologies for the 'drift'...

Last edited by Larry L.; 5th December 2017 at 12:08 PM. Reason: can't spell
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