ERA or hold out for Superformance? - Page 2

JOHNBGT40 · 09-22-05, 10:46 AM

AGIAN! My comments were general statments. AGAIN! all cars that I reserched are nice.
I merly stated that the RF car is the best manaf. for the price. Mono chasis can be fixed! However, AGAIN! When it can comes to repairs anything can be fixed if you spend the money. If you should bend the car, the space frame is cheaper and easier to repair. Everybody is defending their choice
of manaf. Fine! your choice was right for you. AGAIN! I picked RF because I will race the car and probably bend it a little. I find that most people with the GT forties "NOW I SAID MOST..NOT ALL" are trailer show cars cars. At RUN AND GUN, I didnt see one KVA, CVA, GTD, SPF, Putting there car through the paces. WHY? AFRAID! Busy! As I read these threads, It it reminds me why I never take my 65,66,67,68 SHELBYS to car shows. You always have a one person making silly comments about your car and they don't even own a car or if they did own a car, they only know how to wash and wax it.
AGAIN! I picked the RF car for quality, reliability, and cost. If people due there homework and compare all the manaf. They will agree with me that the RF car is the best band for the buck. I will bet any one of my cars to prove me wrong!
Now I know alot of people will respond to this thread. Like the car shows, I will not respond to this thread anymore.

REGARDS

Canuk40 · 09-22-05, 11:36 AM

Hi Oliver,

Guess we're all emotional about our cars

I don't think anyone has taken a run at you for stating your choice.

Of course each manufacturer has it's own intrest in the market, however the companies that participate here often offer advice/expertise/knowledge without charge, to help builders of other companes products.

Also everyone here will be anticipating seeing your car come together and driving impressions once completed.

That's the great thing about this forum, lots of info and helping hands. You won't find a greater resource outside of RF to assist you in the many choices that face all GT40 replica builders.

Cheers

Joe T · 09-22-05, 11:41 AM

Mmmm, I have to agree with the CANUK40, I suppose it depends how bent something gets before you decide to replace the complete chassis.
Compare the time needed to replace a monocoque with no ally panelling or riveting to building up a tube frame and am sure the mono would quicker. Most insurers recomend a replacement over a repair.

I have reshelled a lot of vehicles under insurance, I have done 5 spaceframes, I know what I would rather do. Just my 2 cents worth, both designs have there merit, as more cars make it to the road time will tell, and so will insurance premiums.

Cheers

Ian K · 09-22-05, 11:57 AM

Oliver,

Just want to point out that Rick Merz used to take his GTD
to the Run'n'Gun and many other racing events quite regularly -
an old issue of Kit Car Illustrated has pix (I can find the
exact issue for you later if you want). He sold it off and
thus no longer runs it in events.

TimK, Bud and others regualrly race their cars (Tim's is a Tornado,
Bud's a GTD) - and in the UK GTDs, Tornados and others are run
quite hard.

Then there was Buzz's run in the One Lap of America - two
years straight, in his CAV.

I am not disputing your choice, RF is high on my list as well,
I just wanted to point out that most of the people on this
board put their GT40s through the paces - even the originals.

Ian

Mike Dozier · 09-22-05, 01:05 PM

The mono vs space frame debate will never end...
but it seems to me there will always be room for both.

NSX's original post indicated a strong slant
towards originality...which I interpreted as ruling
out space frames in his decision process.

If performance was really first on his list of priorities....I assume he would have asked a different question.

MikeD

Hershal Byrd · 09-22-05, 02:35 PM

Ian,
Thank you for the recommendation but No Thanks. I don't need the work. You have very diplomatically put the space frame at the back of the bus. Now . being as I have grown up working in my Dad's body shop and I have learned the trade entitles me to offer an opinion as well. I have no degree in engineering and I may not understand all of their scientific terms but I know what I've done and seen. You ginch a mono and repair it. It will never and I mean NEVER return to it's original spot. That's why today we reclip the modern unibodies. You would have to do the same to the CAV mono. Just a simple hit on the front A-arms would cause you to replace that whole section. And where do start or end? Do you take off the whole side or do you just whack it off at the mid bulkhead. Do you cut the spot welds out and reattach a whole new front section.And will the factory send you a replacement section? There again. I'll take the Whew! space frame cause doing everything you mentioned to repair a space frame is overkill or a very severe case if the car is raced. The new CAVs are stainless steel which is a good thing. But I know that stainless is 8 times greater in tensile strengh than regular steel. Stainless doesn't want to bend it resists but when it does bend you sure as heck won't get it back into shape. On a mono, that very slight ginch, turns into a major project. I'm not saying it can't be repaired just saying it will be more expensive and time consuming.
There definetly are disadvantages to space frames but I respectfully feel there are less than the mono.
We can always go over to pistonheads and see what they have to say...Oh, wait, I think somebody done that aldready.
Now for a little horn tooting.... I don't know about CAV or any other manufacturers but I do know that the RF chassis was designed by engineers who build race cars for a living. They have been invovlved in winning race teams in Australia. When the RF chassis was designed it was done with a clean sheet of paper and designed with modern tech so that it could perform at a higher level than the older cars. All one has to do is look at Roaldin's red GT to see that RF strives for this goal of a better car. Another point of interest...The RF has acheived 280 K or about 174MPH. I have the article when the test was done with official timing. I may be wrong but has there been any other manufacturer that fast with a GT.
There has been a Roaring Forties at the last 4 Run & Guns. Rick was there three years ago and he did well. That was the year RF won Top Dog in class. Since that time there has been no GT's there that I saw. Only the three RF's. It's a shame too cause this is great event for all GT's. You get more track time than you can stand.
Well, that's about enough for me. Twenty years from now there will be two other guys talking about this same crap. All it means is for anyone thinking of buying one of these cars is DO YOUR RESEARCH. You decide what's best for you. Ian has stated his preferace as I have mine.WE both represent good companies. These words will hopefully give you information from which to choose. Either way you will become a member of the GT40 replica owners group and that's a good thing.

Hersh [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Canuk40 · 09-22-05, 03:31 PM

Hi Hersh,

Point taken and no disrespect intended. It's great to see the continous developement of space frames, witness the latest from MDA. There is no back of the bus on GT40 Avenue.

I remember standing in Ray Mallocks shop in Milton Keynes back in 1992. Ray was working on the third and forth RML GT40s. They were based on parts sourced from Ken Atwell and became highly developed space frames indeed.

In the old Historic Replica Racing series, the RML GT40s could easily dispatch other GT40 replicas prelevant at the time even while giving up 100hp.

As an interesting side note: the work Ray did on his GT40 went a long way towards the engineering and prototype work he did for Steve Saleen on the S7 (also a tube car). Brilliant man, must have got it from his late father Arther, an iconic builder of english club racing cars.

Hope to meet you some where, at a show or Run & Gun etc. The first round's on me

Cheers

diecast18 · 09-23-05, 12:23 PM

NSXER,

If originality is what you are looking for, then ERA or Superformance is definately the way to go. Superformance's GT40 is copied from an original that Jim Price bought. I believe 95% of the parts are interchangable with the originals. Someone stated earlier about checking out RCR as well. I am not sure on the originality of Frans GT40's, but I'm hoping to check them out myself very soon.

Jonathan · 09-24-05, 10:46 PM

I thought the SPF GT was to start delivery in July. What happened?

vic mastrorocco · 09-24-05, 11:41 PM

Hersh You need to have a scotch partner. No reason to get worked up over RF not being mentioned as his choice. The choice of a space frame or mono can be discussed forever. I can say that I have owned both, and prefer a mono . If I am unfortunant to have an accident an the car can not be fixed, then it will be totaled, an I order a new mono CAV an be driving it five days after delivery.

Mike · 09-25-05, 08:00 AM

If you are looking for

Howard Jones · 09-25-05, 01:37 PM

First I bought my GTD nearly 7 years ago and at the time and my buget it was the best choice FOR ME!

Secondly I know for sure that I can take my spaceframe car to dozens on sprint car shops within 200 miles of my home and get it fixed. I have left out the stockcar guys and the full on road race guys.

Third geting the bent stuff cut off and new tubing welded back on has to be easier and cheeper that taking the whole car apart and sendind the mono back to the builder. Now I am sure it can be done locally in some cases but I would bet that a serious shunt would require it being sent back where you got it to get fixed.

The transportation costs back to SA or bsck accross the pacific would be more than the whole fix for my space frame car.

As far as performance goes. If we are taking amature drivers there isn't any. Period! I would bet a lot that 98% of the owners of GT40s on this forum would run the same lap times in any of these cars is they had the same power and tires.

The most effective dollars spent on one of these cars after you have about 375Hp is in suspension setup and a nice new set of slicks.

So buy what you want and YOU will be happy with the BEST car for YOU!

Oliver · 09-25-05, 01:54 PM

THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT REGARDING SPACEFRAME VS. MONO. I HAVENT READ ONE THREAD REGARDING HOW EASY OR CHEAPER IT IS TO REPAIR A BEAR CAN COMPARED TO A SPACE FRAME .

Iron Sheik · 09-25-05, 02:13 PM

It is amazing how someone with "NO NAME" can post a question, and then, "mine is better, yours SUCKS" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

When I was in Mexico, I asked a guy in a Tequila shop, what is the best tequila? He gave me a sad look and said, The best Tequila is the one you like, period.

I tasted 5 mini (spoon size) shots and selected the one that was $9 for the bottle. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

90% of folks here in US drink BUTWIDER. So is it the best beer?! Or is it the cause of so many Wide A$$es [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

SO, NSXER, Just buy a corvette, or better yet keep your NSX. It is certainly better looking than the vett. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Mike · 09-25-05, 03:29 PM

Didn't work eariler. I was going to say if you are after a original authetic design then the Superformance or ERA is the one to have. The CAV is a mono, but it is basically a GTD chassis turned into a mono chassis. All nice cars.

Gregg · 09-25-05, 04:02 PM

I generally don't post unless I have something constructive to say, however there seems to be more and more irrelevant posts of late - solely my opinion which is to be taken with a grain of salt. If you read NSXR's original post, and the subject title, you are lead to believe he is inquiring about an ERA vs Superformance, however in a later sentence he then goes on to give a perceived negative comment about CAV. Hence the onslaught of defensive replies per manufacturer of space frame v monocoque. To the best of my knowldge neither ERA or Superformance manufacture a space frame car. Why the topic evolved the way it has is a mystery. Why NSXR even mentions CAV when he is asking about ERA V Superformance, again a mystery, neither of which is worthy of the time spent on this reply. As far as NSXR's original querry, of whether he should hold out or not, the only person qualified to make that determination is him. NSXR should ask himself how long he is willing to wait for a car and how much work is he willing to undertake and have to spend assemblying the car, not to mention the cost factor.

As far as everyone's comments on the cost and ability to repair a spaceframe vs a monocoque, no one has mentioned the fact, and I will go out on a limb here, that a qualified shop will more than likely do the repairs with same being paid by INSURANCE proceeds. I seriously doubt that most forum members have the tools and equipment necessary to make the proper repairs.

My 2 cents.

Oliver · 09-25-05, 04:39 PM

I HAVE TO CONTINUE WITH PEOPLE NOT READING ALL THE THREADS OR COMPREHEND WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY..

ALL I WAS STATING WAS THAT THE SPACE FRAME CARS WHERE LESS EXSPENSIVE AND EASIER TO REPAIR. I NEVER STATED THAT ONE CAR WAS BETTER THEN THE NEXT. I STATED MY CHOICE FOR A CAR WAS THE RF.IT WAS THE BEST CAR FOR THE PRICE. AFTER THAT, EVERYBODY READ THE THREAD,ONLY THE PEOPLE WITH SPACEFRAMES CARS
UNDERSTOOD WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY. AND THE NOW STUPIDITY SEEMS TO HAVE DEVELOPED. WHEN IN A SMALL ACCIDENT OCCURES, NOT EVERYBODY RUNS OFF TO THE INSURANCE COMPANY TO FIX THERE CARS...SOME FIX THEIR OWN..OR HAVE SOMONE THEY KNOW THAT CAN FIX IT FOR LESS THAN WHAT YOUR INSURANCE WILL PAY OR YOUR DEDUCTIBLE WILL BE. I AM AMAZED THAT PEOPLE READ JUST A LITTLE BIT AND FLY OFF THE HANDLE WITH STUPID RESPOSES ABOUT WHAT F@$@#$ TYPE OF SHOT IS BEST IN MEXICO. AND FOR THAT PERSON, MY NAME IS JOHN.. AND, JUST KLICK ON THE THREAD AND YOU WILL SEE MY EMAIL ADDRESS. NOW! FOR ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DO COMPREHEND. YOUR COMMENTS WERE INTELIGENTYLY THOUGHT OUT BEFORE YOU RESPONDED. "CONGRATS" I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT CLOWN THAT HAS A COMPHENSION PROBLEM WRITES NEXT.

REGARDS JOHN...I STAND BEHIND MY COMMENTS AND BEG SOMONE TO PROVE ME WRONG WITH A BETTER CAR FOR THE PRICE..

NSXER · 09-25-05, 05:46 PM

WOW! I just got back from a business trip and thought I would check in to see what people thought. My question was not to start any arguements so for that I am sorry. All GT40's look great to me no matter how they are built under the skin. I like CAV's very much, especially Ian's.
The ERA cars that I have seen in person and in pictures though "look" more original. I guess that I should care more about under the skin but I am a very visual person as well. I am going after that "orginal" look. I have seen the original 1075 car upclose at Road America and Monterey and that is the look that I want. If a CAV (Ians car), ERA (gulf colors and flares) and the orginal 1075 car were side by side, the ERA looks closer to the original to ME. This does not mean that I do not like CAV's, they are great cars.
As I have stated before, I would like to duplicate the original 1075 as close as possible (as many others have also). All I was trying to ask was whether or not it would be better to hold out and see how the Superformance MK1 looks. If it looks as good as ERA cars then it may be the way to go, especially if the delivery time is less. I have seen Superformance Cobras and the Daytona coupes up close and the quality is very nice. I am just not sure if I can wait 2+ years for an ERA.

40 Bud · 09-25-05, 06:07 PM

Gee's guys, take your medication and everything will be ok.I own and have built several GTD's. When GTD first talked about building a mono (before CAV was started) I almost went for one. However I decided that the frame was easier to modify and attach various odds and ends as time went on. The only advantage I could determine was - closer to the original (it ain't an original) and a little weight saving. I stayed with the frame. Today if I was willing to spend up to $70,000US for an almost completed car minus engine and tranny and I wasn't interested in the challange of the build, I would wait for the Super Performance model of my liking. If I wanted to do a portion of the build myself I would buy an RF completed to the level that interested me. If I didn't want to wait and didn't want to build I would buy a new model of the Auto Futura group. I think MDA and Fran Hall probably have some very interesting packages available and I would certainly consider both of these - but first I would want a little longer track record and some owners with completed cars to talk to. DRB, ERA and Toronado are certainly nice cars but I think cost or support need to be considered. Just my opinion and like several have said, you are the only one who can decide. Good luck. I don't think you can go wrong choosing any of the established manufacturers. Value for money, support in your area and personal preferences are the big issues.