Frontal Protection in a '40

[Keith Hardy]

When I saw this I though "just another Ferrari wreck" but it got me thinking about frontal crash resistance in a rear engine car. This Ferrari's "deformable" structure is all but used up but it looks as if the drivers legs would have been 'A OK' as the impact s to the right of centre in this left hooker.

I don't know what the speeds were at, nor can I guess form the photo (no skid marks) but it may have been slower than you think as there seems to be minimal damage to the light pole.

With Ferrari presumably putting a high emphasis on safety in the design of a high performance vehicle and having them subjected to rigorous crash testing, the amount of intrusion seems still quite shocking although I understand the basics of deformable safety cells.

It got me to thinking that I would be looking at the front (and side) of a '40 quite carefully to see what added protection could be engineered in without losing too much aesthetics/performance.

Just a thought......

Sorry Admin, the Paddock is clearly the wrong forum for this post.....please move if it warrants it. Thanks.....

[ChrisL]

There’s not a simple answer to your question. All new cars in Australia (and that includes newly registered GT40 replicas) must meet collision safety requirements so technically these cars are “safe enough”.

However, real world safety of any car can only be determined by doing a statistical analysis of collisions/injuries for a given model, and the statistics will often show that theory does not always meet real world. Many manufacturers have an arrangement with the emergency services and are called to a fatal collisions just so that the situation can be analyzed and lessons learnt for the subsequent models. This approach though is obviously unlikely to be applied to low volume cars such as GT40 replicas so we are left with making theoretical guesses.

A recent article in the local newspaper showed the methods that Holden adopted in determining collision safety. To get back to your original question, their studies showed that a majority of fatalities in the Holden Commodore did not occur as a result of a frontal impact, but as a result of a side impact collisions. So if we can apply that statistic to the GT40, in theory it should be a relatively safe car given the large distance between the driver and the outer-most point of the car door. This of course assumes however that the vehicle colliding with side of the GT40 will hit a solid part of the car and not simply ride over it.

But then there are also other factors that influence safety that have nothing to do with chassis design such as the inability to see a GT40 until it emerges from behind a parked car, or the ability to spend less time on the wrong side of the road in an overtaking maneuver... my favorite GT40 safety feature

[Malcolm]

ouch!!!!!!!

[Lynn]

Chrisl,

Good points, all. I think it is to the credit of the majority of replicar makers that they have included some sort of side impact bars in their doors. It wasn't that long ago that steel in the doors was confined to the hinges and lock/stricker assemblies.

Lynn

[Gary Kadrmas]

Chris,

I think the shot of the Ferrari wreck is within the boundries to piss off the guys insurance company quite well.

You bring up a good point about shunts in a GT40 though.

Time for everyone to get their copy of the "Shelby GT40" out by Dave Friedman, and turn to pages 117-119, showing a frontal crash test on a Mk II GT40. What is going to always be in the back of my mind will be what happens if a person hits something solid, and the shunt pushes one or both wheels back into the fuel tanks? I know about the discussions about modern day fuel cells, and what they have over what was in place back in the early days.....but still, that's scary.

**************
Gary Kadrmas

[John W]

I was talking with some police accident investigators 2 weeks ago (they came to do a presentation to the bike club I belong to).

ABS means skid marks are rarely left (on the road anyway )

he mentioned that a lot of performance or competition cars fit items to add strength and remove flexing (strut braces, plated flitch panels, roll bars, etc) and then add carbon fibre or ABS body panels. This means the original built-in crush zones don't do their jobs any more. All the lightweight panels disintegrate, and the strong structure doesn't deform as intended, meaning the body often suffers greater G's than is good for you.

We asked about being trapped by legs etc. He said this did not happen often with competition cars, however internal injuries were very common due to the above. His comment was, crush your legs and you may live, possibly even keep your legs, but dislocate an organ and you will almost certainly die at the scene...

You don't want to know what he said about bikes

[David Morton]

yes we do !!!

[Russ Noble]

Originally Posted by John W

, but dislocate an organ and you will almost certainly die at the scene...

There's nothing worse than a dislocated organ!!!!

[Pete K.]

Bike riders who crash = organ donors (or so say the ER docs).

[John W]

lol Russ

Pete, quite possibly true. Experience counts for a lot, but even experienced riders get caught sometimes. A good friend of mine, and a very experienced rider had a fatal accident last year. It only takes one lapse of concentration or error in judgement, and the cost can be your life.

David, this was a talk to a bunch of Advanced motorcyclists.


The most common motorcycle accident involving another vehicle is the other vehicle turning across its path. This is generally oncoming turning across into side road, or coming out of side road. These two alone amount to around 60% of motorcycle accidents (from memory). The rider usually hits the hardest part of the car (either front suspension or A pillar). Nett result is a flying rider. These are generally not fatal (depending on speed and contact with other vehicles), although colar bones, wrist, legs and arms all suffer.

Number one advanced tip is to match your speed to that which the other road users would expect you to be travelling at approaching the junction. Its fine (maybe) to do 3 figures where there are no hazards, but slow down for junctions.

Most fatals come about by riders failing to take a bend, normally due to inappropriate speed. Note the choice of words. This does not necessarily mean speeding.
Biggest of these are left handers (in the uk) as failing to stay on your side of the road means you find an oncoming vehicle, or if you make it across that okay, something solid like a tree :|
Think of the vanishing point. The furthest point on the road you can see is actually the other side of the road on a left hander...


The following are figures taken from surrey road casualty reports:
2005 - 6858 casualties, slight to serious: 64 fatal.
70% of all casualties were travelling in cars
most at risk age group 16 to 30 years
studies show up to 60% of all accidents are not reported
almost 50% of accidents happen in a 30mph limit
30mph 5/10 people killed - 40mph 9/10 people killed
accidents less frequent at night, but likely to cause serious or fatal injury
30% of accidents occur in the wet
motorbikes represenet 1% of traffic but represent 20% of deaths and serious injuries


If you want some advanced riding tips, give me a call

Cheers,
John (Chairman, Wey Valley Advanced Motorcyclists )

[David Morton]

John,
Tips - much appreciated as I started riding again 3 years ago after an interval of 35years. It's a Duc999 - quite breathtaking but not the most forgiving of machines so I tend to be wildly cautious to the point of being quite boring.
I tend to get nagged by the family to get rid of it - they also cite mates of mine that have gone before.
Dave M

[91740Gt]

Keith,

Great picture and thought provoking question. In my case memory provoking .......

Three years ago at Oulton Park i was out in practice session on a wet track for one of the SR&GT races. 6th lap and i merrily go powering up the Clay Hill section and at the "crest" the front lifts up and i,m airborne and steeringless ( wheels were estimated to be a foot or more of the track ).Round we go and hit the armco at around 80 mph taking the front off and then spinning, hitting the rear end into the armco and coming to a halt 100 yards down the track.

OK, so i,m strapped in very tight and with crutch straps as well. Not a scratch or mark on me which is more than can be said for the 40. A very sorry state, but 8 weeks later and we were racing again with the car looking straight.

I was fortunate but the 40 despite its lowness and looks of fragility is a very strong vehicle and very few drivers have ever been killed in one or that badly injured.

Have any other readers had "biggies" in their 40s.

Regards,

Graham @ GTA.

PS. If i,d been in the 917 i doubt i,d be typing this now !!

[John W]

David, as you know from previous conversation I'm a Ducati man too (998 and ST4S).
I joined WVAM as I had some close shaves as a wake up call, and had to do something about it.If you fancy a ride out for a coffee and bacon buttie this Sunday morning, head over to Ripley, Surrey. Take a look at ::::::::: Wey Valley Advanced Motorcyclists ::::::::: for directions.
Alternatively I can put you in touch with TVAM who are nearer Reading.

We get many 'born again bikers' coming back to bikes, older with more money than previously. The clubs have a great social side, so you get to have a good laugh while gaining skills to improve your safety.
Sorry, don't want to make this a lecture on here. Its hard to give advice without having seen your current level of competence. Give me a PM with your email address if you want to have a chat, or come on down to the next GT40 meeting at Cobham and we'll have a chat over a pint

[David Morton]

SORN for winter - Cobham yes.
Bacon buttie and tea on a Sunday appeals no end - in April.

[Ian Anderson]

Following this I went to wreckedExotics.Com

Found this

[Keith Hardy]

Man....that's pretty much all used up as well.....

[Fred W B]

Re the original photo

Location: The Windsor Hotel, South Perth, Australia , December 2006
Car: 2004 Ferrari 360 Spyder

The driver apparently got drunk at a bar and decided to show off his car as he was leaving. He ended up crashing into a pole right in front of the bar. All the patrons were jeering and laughing at him after the crash.

To cause that much damage to a car, on a bright clear day, on a surburban intersection, with no other vechicles involved, he had to be doing something really stupid.

Cheers

Fred W B

[ChrisL]

Lack of skid marks suggest ABS. ABS can do really wierd things when the car is sideways... they are only really designed to work in a straight line.

The Porsche Cup race cars had ABS until a few years ago. The crashes on the race track with those cars were scarey. Out of controll cars would dart off in all sorts of unpredicatble directions rather than skidding in a straight line.

[Keith Hardy]

That's an