Out of the box thinking...

Brian Hamilton

I'm on the verge of touching myself inappropriatel
I was having one of those late night conversations with a car buddy of mine. We were talking about the ultimate fuel efficient engine and the topic of clean burning natural gas came up. Then we started discussing modern fuel delivery such as direct injection. Now, heres what we were wondering...

Has anyone come up with a direct injection natural gas engine? I mean you'd only need a puff of that stuff in the engine and the direct injection would make it crazy efficient. Has anyone come up with that sort of injector system yet?

What are your thoughts?
 

Brian Hamilton

I'm on the verge of touching myself inappropriatel
Wow, looks cool!! What Opel model is it that uses the 2.0 direct injected turbocharged Ecotec engine also found in the Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice? That's what I'm looking for. Something that may just replace the direct injection fuel injector itself. That would be pretty cool I think. You could tune it perfectly, plus the cold fuel temperature would sure help the air charge from that huffer.
 
I wonder if you could run a pair of 4 cylinder setups on an 8?

I do see a danger though;

Diagnostics, service and parameter load software operates on Windows 98, 2000, XP and Vista platforms


I'd hate to be in the middle of an awesome road, enjoying the day and the drive, to be interrupted by the blue screen of death........
 
I was checking into CNG for a Ford diesel. I called many vendors that had wonderful websites and not a one could retrofit an existing engine. They all wanted to sell you one of their CNG designed ones or put you on a mailing list for "future developments".

PS: The CNG engine that one East Coast vendor tried to sell me was $58,000.00. That would buy a LOT of diesel.
 

Steve Briscoe

Lifetime Supporter
I think Westport Innovations is a great company. They provide injectors and other related parts that go into buses that are running on LNG in some California ports. They've teamed up with a company known as Clean Energy in which T. Boone Pickens has a stake. There's some pretty interesting stuff starting to develop.

Steve
 
Brian
I have a friend that experimented with natural gas engines in the 80's. The results were pretty amazing. The one thing that he stressed was that most of the conversions were done on existing motors, and the performance was less than spectacular. Natural gas has an octane rating of about 130, and he had a motor running 11 1/2 to 1 compression with a supercharger and there were no knock issues. The performance was as he described it "like a big block on steroids".
The other benefits were of course very clean emissions, and an oil change at 5000 miles produced drain oil that looked almost like it went in. Engine wear was almost non-existent.
The problem is filling stations, I know of only one public one here in N.J., and the alternative is a compressor unit at your home that fills the tank overnight.
All this was done in the mid 80's, so the technology is there.
I have seen some subsequent attempts at using natural gas, but all of the motors were low compression-retro fitted units that were dogs when it came to performance.
I can tell you that I personally saw a diesel motor that had the injection stripped off, heads re-fitted for spark plugs, and a distributor fitted up, and it ran with no issues, and much cleaner.
Do some research, the truth is out there.
Cheers
Phil
 
I'm seeing a conversion kit for popular performance motors;

Pistons,
Rods (maybe),
CNG fuel system & management, (wonder whether temps require valves?) Tank & filler setup,
Compressor for home fuelling.

There are buses running around on "natural gas" in certain parts of Australia. They look and sound rather like regular buses, but the operating costs are apparently much lower. It certainly helps with your infrastructure when you're using the stuff on an industrial scale though.

If anybody finds a potential supplier with the above, or perhaps prepared to add a supercharger to conventional compression ratios, this would certainly be the place to post it.
 
Yes the technology has been around for decades, back in the late 70's i was working for a Ford Dealership in Auckland NZ and we retro fitted a few 210 Cummins V8 deisels with CNG, but the big problem was bottle stoorage, as you needed a lot of it to get a decent days work out of the truck, and i recall a Dairy co down in the Waikato converted most of there fleet of Milk tankers from deisel to straight CNG , 3208 cat engines that are basicly a big block ford anyway, just took out the injectors and fitted plugs, a distributor and a turbo, they apparently had a reassonable amount of success with it, but then the source dried up and it all fell flat and got buried in the back cupboard.
cheers John
 

Brian Hamilton

I'm on the verge of touching myself inappropriatel
There was a local guy in Austin who did a lot of retrofits. He even did some drag cars with CNG. Yes I am well aware that engine wear and damage is quite minimal as this is a very clean burning fuel. There are a few fill stations here in my area, thank God for lots of trailer houses that run on propane for heat. It would definitely be something I'd be interested in playing with. 130 octane, high compression, high boost, sounds like a winner to me!!! I'd be all over a turbocharger setup for an engine like that, you could actually run them in series like the race diesel guys do and get insane boost levels. I don't know how it would react to that though...

11.5:1 - 12.0:1 compression
30 - 35 lbs of boost

You'd definitely need some haas rods for that cylinder pressure, but the engine I'm looking at has forged I-beam rods from what I remember. If not, I'm probably going to rebuild it anyway in order to up the compression. Here's the engines I'm thinking of modifying...

Neon/Caliber SRT4 2.4L DOHC Turbo
Solstice GXP/Sky Redline 2.0L DOHC Direct Injected Turbo

Now, the SRT4 engine would probably just be a retrofit, while the Turbocharged Ecotec would be a full swap due to the direct injection. I'd love to get my hands on this kind of stuff and tinker around though. Direct injected CNG on a high compression turbo engine is getting me stoked!!!
 
Just make sure you do it right with automatic shut off valves in the right places - that way if you're in an accident, the tank won't take off light a rocket.

I worked for an alternative fuels company back in the 90's. They were a Tier 1 supplier to GM for their alternatives fuel program. That division has seemed to spun off on its own to Quantum Technologies: Quantum Technologies

They are strictly OEM as far as I know, but shoot them an email - who knows? It looks like they still do CNG work, but they are more focused now on hydrogen and fuel cells. When I left they were working on CNG injectors.
 
I recall reading many years ago that Reeves Callaway experimented with a CNG
modified Corvette. Or maybe it was Ligenfelter. I'll have to do some searching.

Ian
 

Brian Hamilton

I'm on the verge of touching myself inappropriatel
I worked for an alternative fuels company back in the 90's. They were a Tier 1 supplier to GM for their alternatives fuel program. That division has seemed to spun off on its own to Quantum Technologies: Quantum Technologies

They are strictly OEM as far as I know, but shoot them an email - who knows? It looks like they still do CNG work, but they are more focused now on hydrogen and fuel cells. When I left they were working on CNG injectors.

I just emailed them.
Searching their site I found this...

Quantum Technologies - Products

Check the left side for Injectors, Regulators, and Electronic Controllers for all the info. Cool stuff!!!
 
Brian
Just to add a little something. What Chris P. said about the safety factor is important with any high pressure flammable. I remember propane fueled engines on forklifts having a simple switch that was fitted to the intake manifold, and was vacuum actuated, this safety came after an accident where a motor had been cranked repeatedly in a closed trailer, until the sparks from the starter ignited the fuel...not a good result. Natural gas is lighter than air, and at higher pressures so I think any good management system would have these safeguards built in. Something to check on.
Good Luck
Phil
 

Doug S.

The protoplasm may be 72, but the spirit is 32!
Lifetime Supporter
I've always thought a hybrid electric/CNG auto would be a great idea. All you would need in your garage would be an electrical plug and a natural gas compressor about the size of a suitcase and then the gas companies can go straight to hello, ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies!

Sure would be nice to thumb our noses at those petroleum traders!

Doug
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
I met this guy at the show in Bulawayp
Link: Inventors Hall of Fame

He had a unit at the show that had been run and was acheining amazing claimed results 85 plus mpg in a 3000 lb car and 0 - 60 in 4.5
He used both fuels (petrol and gas) in his "engine" which was direct coupled to a generator. This then powered in wheel electric motors (one per wheel)

The idea intreagued me back then and still does now but other than patents for the inventions I can find no more mention of the technology. (Did some company buy him out?

Now that technology would be cool in a modern car - possibly coupled to a battery system for "in town2 work

Ian
 

Brian Hamilton

I'm on the verge of touching myself inappropriatel
I met this guy at the show in Bulawayp
Link: Inventors Hall of Fame

He had a unit at the show that had been run and was acheining amazing claimed results 85 plus mpg in a 3000 lb car and 0 - 60 in 4.5
He used both fuels (petrol and gas) in his "engine" which was direct coupled to a generator. This then powered in wheel electric motors (one per wheel)

The idea intreagued me back then and still does now but other than patents for the inventions I can find no more mention of the technology. (Did some company buy him out?

Now that technology would be cool in a modern car - possibly coupled to a battery system for "in town2 work

Ian


We had actually talked about that during our discussion too. Basically a dedicated generator to power wheel motors. Then use regenerative braking to stop the vehicle, with mechanical brakes as an emergency backup. You'd eliminate quite a few power robbing pieces of the vehicle. You could couple a CNG converted diesel 4 cylinder to a high gear reduction generator and run it to charge the system and then off you go. The engine would only kick on when cells needed to be charged. Our thoughts also were that you have 2 banks of cells, one for the front wheels, and one for the rear. In a full throttle acceleration all 4 wheels would get full power and off you go like a rocket. When cruising, you're only using one set of wheels to maintain speed while the others charge, then you alternate. During braking, all 4 wheels use regerative braking to charge their cells. Another energy creating idea was to put a motion generator on the shocks/struts and mount some in the horizontal axis. The up & down motion & side to side motion would create a little power, like those flashlights you shake to charge. Also, i believe there has been a breakthrough in solar cells where they can be applied like a paint. It's basically a 3-4 step process but once done, you have a huge solar cell. Imagine driving that around? Kind of a cool color I guess...
Here's the links I found on it...
Spray-On Solar-Power Cells Are True Breakthrough
YouTube - Spray-On Solar-Power Cells Are True Breakthrough
It would definitely be worth a proof of concept build. LOL Who's up for it?! Wonder what kind of sponsorships we could get from manufacturers...
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Brian

The thing that amazed me was the turbine he was usind was about 4 inches diameter bu an inch across!

This was coupled to what I can best describe as a "large" turbocharger - the end of the shaft then had the coupling for the generator.

To start the battery was connected to the generator to spin the shaft to start the "whine" and then connect gas and ignite. (Continuous burn) and no cooling etc - also said to be usind Ceramic bearings throughout and no oiling system!

I said why not only 1 motor and a diff and he said too many losses through the gears.

The best thing for an eco vehicle is to run whatever motor at most economical revs (volumetric efficiency on petrol engines) and this engine speed must be the same as required by the generator.

About 5 years back I read one of his test motors was running at a Wycoming oil site and had been running continuously - un maintained for something like 18 years.

I only wish I could track him down and find out what is happening to the set up.

Ian
 
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