Should the US Government (Taxpayers) Bail Out the Big Three?

[domtoni]

Pete - your comments are great. I heard that before and it is the truth.
Cliff Beer - I understand too what you are saying.

Being that Iacocca had first hand experience running the business, he knows (better than we can ever imagine) just what knowledge and pressure influences CEOs of car companies.

I don't think the job is all that easy.

Best
Dom

[David Sturch]

You guys may joke and laugh but running an auto compay is like trying to steer a mega tanker in a strong current.(UAW) If the product you are carring to port has the bottom fall out price wise ,before you arrive kind of leaves you in a pickle. It takes a while to slow down and turn around. You have probably noticed my build posts have been dormant for a while, I am sitting tight waiting to see what will happen. Having worked for General Motors of Canada and retired with a package a year and a half ago I may have to look for another job. The pension fund took a hit with the finacial crisis. So Keith as it stands right now I would be better off on a disability pension if the worst happens. Problem is I'm not disabled. I have some nice books from GM of Canada from 1939-45. We produced alot of equipment that went overseas. GM of Canada was owned and run by a Canadian then. Pete the Pontiac G8(Commodore) nice machine well built, I've driven one. We built on the same platform here with brake components developed, patented and produced in OZ used here, also lubercants from Castrol NZ. GM being a gobal company in the restructuring bailout has already talked of dropping Pontiac, Saab and Saturn. The bailout money to stay in the U.S. Most of the foreign operations ran in the black except for Opal/Vauxall. So Pete I think your guys at Holden may end up in the same boat as me. The Canadian Gov. is looking to do a coordinated bailout also. I fear Chrysler will be gone from Canada completely(2 plants left) and moved to the U.S. I guest time will tell.
Dave

[speed220mph]

Bailout means control. A 1,000 word picture.

[40 Bud]

Pete, I don't think a better example of the problem exists! I for one would appreciate a "bailout" from the trashing that the dollar has taken over the many years of the fed pinting more money when ever they need it. Nothing is better than getting billions of dollars worth billions of dollars and then paying it back with inflated ones.

[Tony Hunt]

I assume the US Government wouldn't bail out Joe the Plumber? If they bail out the auto companies, at which point do they change over?

'If you owe the US Govt $1,000,000, you have a problem. If the US Govt owes you $1,000,000,000,000, the US Govt has a problem.'

[keohep]

Its so easy to blame the workers for the trouble with the car industry in the US ....For shit sake look at the money paid the the top executives ...its a joke, if a mormal buisness had problems do you think the tax payers should pay the buisness owners a bail out plan....They should be responsible the executives make the decisions on how the buisness runs.Look at all CEO payments in the last ten years do you think they should be given that kind of sallery. And then look at how much the workers wages has gone up,no wonder you need to work two jobs in the US one to pay the rent the other to feed the family.The you get all these top class execs taking all manufacturing to china,again taking work of local workers,what do YOU think would happen after all the cash has gone to that country as well as the technology!!! a goverment that has trillions and trillions of debt ...mind you we can still pay the Tiger Woods of this world there billions too.

[Joey Dean]

A worker is due his pay.

I will never begrudge anyone, including a CEO, what the company pays them. If I think it is outrageous I have the option to not own stock in that company or to gripe like hell at the annual shareholders meeting.

I also feel that a company set's it's own destiny. I am not responsible for those descisions and I do not want to pay for anothers mistakes. I have gone broke before and except for a hug from my wife, no one offered to pay for the mistakes I made.

Personal responsibility is just that, personal.

[keohep]

I hear where your comming from Joe...

I was in the states a few months ago ..i felt embarresd for some of the waiters and waitresses fancy giong to a bank asking for a home loan and telling them you rely on tips for a wage.Then going back to your hotel room and watch a TV host who makes
100k a week

[Pete McCluskey.]

I have no idea how accurate this is, it was emailed to me by a friend. I do like the sentiment, I hope you find it interesting.
P.


Letter from Troy Clarke, President of General Motors - followed by a
response from Gregory Knox of Knox Machinery:



Dear Employees & suppliers,



Next week, Congress and the current Administration will determine whether
to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it
through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history.
Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is
critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global
financial crisis......................As an employee or supplier, you have
a
lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate
voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.



Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.



Troy Clarke President General Motors North America



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~



From Gregory Knox,



In response to your request to call legislators and ask for a bailout for
the United States automakers please consider the following, and please also
pass this onto Troy Clark, the president of General Motors North America
for
me.



You are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has bred
like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose
plague is now sweeping the nation, awaiting our new "messiah" to wave his
magical wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time
allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream"...

The dream is over!



The dream that we can ignore the consumer for years while management
> myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that
our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant,
ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price
for these atrocities...and that still the masses will line up to buy our
products



Don't tell me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I
have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle
and countless other automotive OEM's and Tier ones for 3 decades now
throughout the Midwest and what I've seen over the years in these union
shops can only be described as disgusting.



Mr. Clark, the president of General Motors, states:



There is widespread sentiment in this country, our government and
especially in the media that the current crisis is completely the result of
bad management. It is not...



You're right - it's not JUST management...how about the electricians who
walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on
them for countless hours while they drag ass...so they can come in on the
weekend and make double and triple time...for a job they easily could have
done within their normal 40 hour week.



How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare
tactics...for putting out too many parts on a shift...and for being too
productive (mustn't expose the lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for
decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?) Do you really not
know about this stuff?!?



How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea:

over the last few years ...we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps
with our competitors.



What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?



Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between
us and them?



The K car vs. the Accord?

The Pinto vs. the Civic?!?



Do I need to go on?



We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United
States auto industry for decades.

Time to pay for your sins, Detroit.



I attended an economic summit last week where a brilliant economist, Alan
Beaulieu surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks
a penny of "bailout money". Yes, he said, this would cause short term
problems, but despite what people like George Bush and Troy Clark would
have
us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day... and something else
would happen...where there had been greedy and sloppy banks new efficient
ones would pop up...that is how a free market system works...it does
work...if we would let it work...



But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is
right and that capitalism doesn't work - that we need the government to
step
in and "save us"...save us, hell - we're nationalizing...and unfortunately
too many of this once fine nations citizens don't even have a clue that
this
is what's really happening...but they sure can tell you the stats on their
favorite sports teams...yeah - THAT'S important...



Does it occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing
vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades now in this country?...



How can that be???



Let's see...

Fuel efficient...

Listening to customers...

Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul...



Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr W Edwards Deming 4
decades ago.



Ever increased productivity through quality, lean and six sigma plans...

Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy"...

Efficient front and back offices...

Non union environment...



Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone
anything they really don't already know in their hearts.



I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting
someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into - my
children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did at their age. I
do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the
way) - I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences
of their actions and work them through.



Radical concept, huh...



Am I there for them in the wings? Of course - but only until such time as
they need to be fully on their own as adults.



I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are
unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and
government.



Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins.



Bad news people - it's coming whether we like it or not



The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to
"make it all go away" I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in"
almost immediately after the vote count was tallied..."we might not do it
in
a year...or in four..." where was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for
the office



Stop trying to put off the inevitable ...



That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000...



People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care
benefits...



That job driving that forklift for the big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a
year...



We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products
acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has
the
most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe...



That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be
living in that $485,000 home...



Let the market correct itself people - it will. Yes it will be painful,
but it's gonna be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is
that on the other side of it is a nation that appreciates what is has...and
doesn't live beyond its means...and gets back to basics...and redevelops
the
work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the
world...and probably turns back to God.



Sorry - don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the
"bad news"



Gregory J. Knox

President

Knox Machinery, Inc.

Franklin, Ohio 45005

[David Sturch]

Pete,
I Googled Knox Machinery Inc and there is such a company. Sounds like he was dealing with the big three in the past, or parts suppliers. He was probably burned by one of them in the past. The way things are going I think the "R" word is going to change to the "D" word. The trends are not far off from 1929 in the stock market. The way Bush is talking of structured bankruptsy you will see Holden,Opel,Vauxall, GMC all sold off or shut down on the GM side over the next few years. I think MR. Knox will get his wish.
Dave

[Chris Ardern]

The mentality of the union auto worker turns my stomach. The sense of entitlement that made this Country what it is today. I say let it all crash and the industry that is rebuilt from the ashes will be a much better system. One aspect of the industry besides all the obvious is the waste that goes into retooling for new new new. Why. Why do we always need new designs. Porsches have been basically the same design for 40 years. If people were grateful and content with what they had we wouldn't be in this mess. I know this is an oversimplification but you know what I mean. My 97 Chevy Pickup truck is awesome. I take care of it, It's quite, runs great, the stereo sound great. It's been paid for for years. I drive in it and count the blessings that I have.
Chris

[JvdM]

I just heard the news that the U.S. Government is willing to invest 17,000,000 dollar in the car industry but they must have a solid plan before April.

I guess, all's well that ends well.

[Molleur]

These bailouts are a really insane idea! The banks, mortgage companies and insurance companies as well as the big three and the UAW should be penalized rather than rewarded for just plain stupid operations over a very long time. Let them flounder and fall on thier sword! The reconomic reprucussions felt will be of a much shorter duration as contrasted to the "plan" to spend our way out creating a deeper recession as it trickles down over the next several years. Mr. Knox has it all absolutely correct.

My two-cents...

[Ian K]

It's true - but, unfortunately, Greg Knox never sent it to Troy Clarke:

snopes.com: Letter to General Motors

Ian

[Kalun D]

""The mentality of the union auto worker turns my stomach. The sense of entitlement that made this Country what it is today.""

These are two diametrically conflicting statements. Seriously all you guys that despise the Unions need to move to China. RIGHT FFFFING NOW!!!! You won't have to worry about Unions and you won't have to worry about being overpaid. You whine about entitlement but I bet you wouldn't give up anything you have. Well most of what you have is an indirect result of Unions in this country. Before Unions the average working man could barely afford to live much less own GT40's. Name me one single country, that has no Unions, where a working man can afford to own a GT40.

"I say let it all crash"

As long as you don't mind going down with it, because that's what's going to happen. Just like all the CEO's and managers who won't pay their employees enough to buy what they're selling. What goes around comes around. You don't think you're connected to 10 Million workers in the auto sector, you've got a RUDE awakening ahead of you.

"the waste that goes into retooling for new new new"

It's called competition, if the Japanese are doing it you better be doing it too, otherwise you fall behind like they already have. Besides it's advancement, with your mentality we'd all still be swinging clubs and living in caves, after all "it worked just fine for them".

There is a lot of waste but that's the system, what do you think a GT40 on the street is? Instead of dragging this country down to the level of China by doing away with the Unions why don't we bring China up? Unions are not the problem although they do need moderating. The problem is unregulated banking. The big three is just a side issue, their problems are caused by breaks for offshoring companies, overpriced health care, and unbalanced tariffs. The Unions have already made concessions, do you even know what they are?

It's not a Union problem, you need to stop depending on the BOOB TUBE for your news, it's all owned by 5 large corporations, all of them anti Union.

Oh and BTW it's not a bailout, it's a loan. The thing for the banks is a bailout. How come nobody said anything when we gave a $700 BILLION bailout to the banks no questions asked?

[JvdM]

Originally Posted by M3GTDRIVER

I just heard the news that the U.S. Government is willing to invest 17,000,000 dollar in the car industry but they must have a solid plan before April.

I guess, all's well that ends well.

Oops, I just saw two false statements in my post:
1) it's $17,000,000,000 , slight mistake in typing.
2) it's not "the car industry" but only General Motors and Chrysler.

Luckely nobody noticed or wrote a comment!

[domtoni]

Kalun,

I think you made a very correct statement:
We don't want to bring the USA down to China's level, as everyone will be poor.

I believed in NAFTA as I thought it would:
- bring Mexico's standard of living up
- reduce illegal immigration
- raise the U.S.'s standard of living

Guess what. When labour's cost in Mexico got too high (read about $1 / hour), the major companies closed their mexican operations, and moved to lower labor cost in China.

Companies have become nation states.

Tax rates should be the same for locally made goods (40% in Illinois) to imported goods (6% in Illinois).

GM's top purchasing guy wanted to buy more components from China.

At days end, if no one makes a good living, who will buy all of this stuff?

We need a balanced economy, with 1 in 4 jobs in manufacturing. Labour and management need to make a fair wages, not an inflated UAW/celebrity management pay packages. People need to work their 40 hours a week. Etc.

I heard the Pope say a year or so back about entitlement:
People should have the right to:
- eduction
- housing
- food
- sanitation
- health care

and the punchline:
- a job !!!!
Ie you contribute to society and you get the benefits.

So much for my ramblings.

Best to all during this Christmas season

Dom

Dom